Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
48%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
49
52%
 
Total votes : 95

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:53 pm

Sorry for the late reply!

mendedties wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:I think he was a superb warrior, his killing of a named officer is almost unique.


I see this argument frequently and the logic eludes me. Are you saying anyone who kills a named officer is a great warrior, so that any other time a named officer died in battle some unnamed great warrior was behind it?

An officer dying in battle was not unique. One officer dying directly at the hands of another was, but that's just probability. Lots more common soldiers than officers on the field.


It's a fair question. I think any officer death, especially a high ranking one, in battle is impressive. Even more so when another named officer is involved, especially so in this circumstance. I'll explain why:

General's of The South says:

It needed an elite corps of highly seasoned fighters to open up avenues of attack so that the bulk of the soldiers could then swarm in behind them, sustain the momentum of the attack, and exploit the results. These battle formations were nonetheless commanded by men of courage, who were themselves versed in [491] the martial arts and who personally led their soldiers in valiant charges.


This wasn't the quote I was looking for but it'll do. Basically armies were made up of conscripted masses with the best soldiers being gathered into "elite corps", these corps were formed around the best officers. People like Guan Yu, and Yan Liang. This basically means the hardest fighting happened around the named officers, like Yan Liang. Therefore killing an officer did take skill.

I said that I think it's particularly special when done by another named officer. Well that's because they are surrounded by their own unite, also elite fighters, if they are actually the one to land the killing blow that says they must be special, most of the time you'd presume it would be their bodyguards who would do the killing.

I also said I thought Guan Yu's action was particularly impressive. That's because battle hadn't been joined yet. Yan Liang's elite group had't been engaged, distracted or separated from Yan Liang. They were still around him. Guan Yu rode into an elite unite, killed their leader and made it out alive. That is a terrific achievement.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:04 am

Dong Zhou wrote:how can you beat someone several times as you claimed then (and one beating here) and not win? Pang De hit with an arrow, that is all that is recorded. Not that he was being successful or having the happer hand

It is possible that with different tactics, Guan Yu wins. Whether yours would have worked, we will never know. Once his base is gone, supplies in the field becomes a problem

That would seem to have the decision of commanders on the ground rather then Guan Yu, presumably they felt they couldt stop Xu Huang's forces thus failing to challenge.

Scouts don't automatically solve "which if the nearby camps is he actually going to attack", there isn't any suggestion Guan Yu wasn't using scouts either

Xu Huang seems to have had a good idea where it was. The lure out was probably to ensure he could take out some of Guan Yu's forces before a direct attack on the strongly fortified headquarters, better to take them on when weakened and morale is with you.

The texts suggest the ten detachments had actually joined Xu Huang's army before Xu Huang attacked


beat several times? eh, because he cant make a headway against him, is that reason not enough? its true, Pang De did wound Guan Yu once, but it doesn't say how many times they met in the attempt to besiege both city. If Guan Yu could slain Pang De the way he did with one of Yuan Shao's brute, i wouldnt said "Pang De beat his asses off several times". I guess even the mighty had lose his fang, can't even bite anymore even against Pang De :lol:

Well, commander on the ground is sadly to say, Guan Yu himself. theres only few officer involved in that battle, Guan Ping, Zhao Lei, Liao Hua and himself. I hardly think the other three would daringly makes a decision for Guan Yu knowing how stubborn he is, whoever he was with at that time. Its Guan Yu who makes a decision, its him who thought they wouldn't withstand a chance against Xu Huang even when he splitting his force that time.
Xu Huang do split his force to save both fortress.

No idea how big this ten detachment is though, pretty doubt its as big as Guan Yu's men. Detachment usually mean hundreds to thousands of men of a time (now you know why Wu Lan and other get killed by Cao Zhang). Even if he know, he wouldn't recklessly charge to a fortified encampment only to be pinned by Guan Yu from different direction, which why he needed Guan Yu to act as his buffer so he could enter the camp easily.

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When i read again, the span of time between Liu Bei took Hanzhong, Meng Da sent to occupy Shangyong and Guan Yu attack Fancheng is only three months. With Hou Yin rebellion only gap for 3-4 months before. I think its asking alot for Meng Da to sent a reinforcement when he only occupy Shangyong for less than a month, people like Shen Yi and others who are pro Cao wouldve revolt when he left with few trusted personel or defect when he sent them to battlefield as reinforcement. But Liu Bei and even ZGL doesn't seems to understand that, wasn't its ZGL who badmouthing Meng Da when they heard he refused to sent reinforcement.

If Guan Yu a good leader, he would make a hard choice to travel a far distance toward ally territory (Meng Da) not traversing dangerous territory owned by your ally-turn-enemy. Thats why i said even Lu Bu better than him, to be frankly i liked Lu Bu more than Guan Yu. I wonder why people worship him so much to the point get angry even bordering violence when get criticized.

EDIT - Sorry didn't reply for long time, was busy at workplace.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:46 pm

No problem at all, life gets busy I understand

beat several times? eh, because he cant make a headway against him, is that reason not enough? its true, Pang De did wound Guan Yu once, but it doesn't say how many times they met in the attempt to besiege both city. If Guan Yu could slain Pang De the way he did with one of Yuan Shao's brute, i wouldnt said "Pang De beat his asses off several times". I guess even the mighty had lose his fang, can't even bite anymore even against Pang De :lol:


Exactly, we don't know how many times they met. We don't know timescale, we don't know if that was a one off or part of several clashes. We can't say Pang De was beating Guan Yu, all we can say is there was one moment where Pang De wounded Guan Yu

Officer on officer kills were extremely rare and Cic's roles very different from the warrior part of vanguard Guan Yu was being at Boma. There isn't a sense in the texts that Guan Yu's strength had declined

Well, commander on the ground is sadly to say, Guan Yu himself. theres only few officer involved in that battle, Guan Ping, Zhao Lei, Liao Hua and himself. I hardly think the other three would daringly makes a decision for Guan Yu knowing how stubborn he is, whoever he was with at that time. Its Guan Yu who makes a decision, its him who thought they wouldn't withstand a chance against Xu Huang even when he splitting his force that time.
Xu Huang do split his force to save both fortress.


We don't know any of the Shu generals names at Fan I believe. We know a few of those with Guan Yu in Jing but not if any of them were at Fan

I doubt Guan Yu was the commander of that force that retreated rather then fight Xu Huang. Guan Yu's main camp was at the seigelines, I would be very surprised if Guan Yu left the siege and took personal command of a detachment that might or might not face a Wei army while the records wording gives sense they were not under Guan Yu. I would also be surprised if the officer on the ground had no tactical flexibility whatsoever and the records don't put the decision on Guan Yu


No idea how big this ten detachment is though, pretty doubt its as big as Guan Yu's men. Detachment usually mean hundreds to thousands of men of a time (now you know why Wu Lan and other get killed by Cao Zhang). Even if he know, he wouldn't recklessly charge to a fortified encampment only to be pinned by Guan Yu from different direction, which why he needed Guan Yu to act as his buffer so he could enter the camp easily.


Well ten detachment added to an existing army, that could have tilted the odds (plus combined with Cao Ren's forces). Guan Yu was inside the main camp before the attack on the outside camps so if the idea was to prevent Guan Yu arriving from the outside, it would seem a waste since he was already inside. I maintain it was probably to "ensure he could take out some of Guan Yu's forces before a direct attack on the strongly fortified headquarters, better to take them on when weakened and morale is with you."

When i read again, the span of time between Liu Bei took Hanzhong, Meng Da sent to occupy Shangyong and Guan Yu attack Fancheng is only three months. With Hou Yin rebellion only gap for 3-4 months before. I think its asking alot for Meng Da to sent a reinforcement when he only occupy Shangyong for less than a month, people like Shen Yi and others who are pro Cao wouldve revolt when he left with few trusted personel or defect when he sent them to battlefield as reinforcement. But Liu Bei and even ZGL doesn't seems to understand that, wasn't its ZGL who badmouthing Meng Da when they heard he refused to sent reinforcement.


I think it is reasonable for Guan Yu to ask, there were two armies in Shangyong and if he doesn't ask then he doesn't get reinforcements. It seems reasonable for the others to look at the local situation and refused. I don't know the exact length of gap (less then year, I strongly suspect more then a month) between taking of Shangyang and Guan Yu's advance. I would also say Shen Yi was probably not particularly pro Cao

Zhuge Liang only spoke against Liu Feng and that was on an entirely separate matter, Liu Bei wasn't happy with their decision (not unfair that he judges the situation differently) but took no action

If Guan Yu a good leader, he would make a hard choice to travel a far distance toward ally territory (Meng Da) not traversing dangerous territory owned by your ally-turn-enemy. Thats why i said even Lu Bu better than him, to be frankly i liked Lu Bu more than Guan Yu. I wonder why people worship him so much to the point get angry even bordering violence when get criticized.


Guan Yu was going, as Wei officers discussed, to come to the relief of his forces in Jing, he probably didn't know the extent of how things had collapsed. I'm not sure most would look well on Guan Yu if he withdrew from Fan and then went straight to Shangyong rather then what he would believed was his besieged officers

Nothing wrong with liking Lu Bu. I like Lu Bu, your not going to be judged for liking a figure. He was a proven bad leader though.

From what I said about his being worshippedWouldn't be the only time flawed figures were worshipped in history. I think the reasons he got, way way after his death, worshipped as I understand it: due to things like his famed bond with his brother, his reputation in his time for honour lived on, the Han popularity in the centuries of civil war and outside invasion that followed the 3kingdoms added lustre to his name and that his being God of War wasn't going to put anyone in an awkward position in regards their own clan/empires history.. It isn't right people get that way about any historical figure but that isn't on him
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