Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
48%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
49
52%
 
Total votes : 95

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby mendedties » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:54 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I think he was a superb warrior, his killing of a named officer is almost unique.


I see this argument frequently and the logic eludes me. Are you saying anyone who kills a named officer is a great warrior, so that any other time a named officer died in battle some unnamed great warrior was behind it?

An officer dying in battle was not unique. One officer dying directly at the hands of another was, but that's just probability. Lots more common soldiers than officers on the field.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:51 pm

he was bunkered down when he's got locked on both side wasn't he? and that was really bad. i mean, he has that 30.000 men + Yu Jin following him all around, that really bad for that sizable army to stay on one place like Meicheng fort is, theres no food to be go around. So, best option was to charge through either line for survival while he still has that food he raided, not waiting for reinforcement.

personally, i think this was the weakness Guan Yu has. Zhang Fei for example, when he was cornered, he would think out a way out of that problem, like how he fool the smart Cao Cao at Changban. ZGL would order his men to implement Tuntian system to sustain his army in a long march on Wuzhang.
But, Guan Yu's mind isn't build for that, when Guan Yu presented with such circumstances, he would've retreat, hide from enemy, surrender etc, and not think out any solution of his problem. To me Guan Yu is a type who would trample at everything without proper planning, and would get confused when it doesn't work, then choose the most desperate and bad option to get away, even though those option is the worst option he had.


Off the top of my head, didn't his army collapse when they saw Lu Meng's treatment of their families? I'm not sure what forces Guan Yu had once that happened.

Guan Yu doesn't come across as a considerable tactician no

I see.
So, what happen if the hearsay or eye-witnesses was wrong and only just exaggerating it up?


Back then? We don't tend to get details when that happens, usually a "so and so got false reputation but governor awesome-pants saw it was false and refused to give appointment or recommended to court, so and so later turned out be false." Usually for unknown reasons. Officials seen as getting too close could be damaged by the fall but usually those officials are unnamed (one could probably get a few such things wrong like soothsayers could be wrong or a general lose a battle). If they recommended the person and they turned to be a traitor, it could see a sacking (Zhong Yao with Wei Fang) or even worse (Hao Pu committed suicide over Yin Fan).

I see.

Yes and then wrong. I remembered correctly reading that Xu Huang's men were all fresh recruits and not properly trained yet. So him shouting that rewards for Guan Yu's head was to raise their morale. I mean, he was bringing a large number of men who only know they would get spoils of war, reward etc, just like u ever said to me on the other thread.

So, Xu Huang won't be in any position to refuse here, he'd have to accept, he must accept the challenge, otherwise he'd run a risk of mutiny, a very large number of mutiny that is if Guan Yu played his card right. Thats why i said i would entice his men if he ever refuse the challenge, like saying he was a coward, or join me and get more reward etc etc.
Now the only choices is fall into Guan Yu's hand, would he want to kill his own friend? this question is pretty tricky doesn't it, this would branches off two possible reason whether he was thinking duty above friends or the reverse.

- Edit - The conversation was most likely take place in front of their respective army and not in private. This is what i would usually do when someone named a price for my head, i would retorted the same by saying more reward if they get the person's head that includes the person's army. This would throwing his army in confusion, especially on such circumstances, mostly they would take no part of this nonsense and leave (deserted), some would tempted by the reward i stated and rebelled (mutiny). Whatever reason, they would fought among themselves.


Didn't he then wait for reinforcements?

I get why Xu Huang did it, made sense form his position to try to lift moral. I just don't think Guan Yu was wrong to be a bit surprised

There is a risk that it would unnerve his army true but he can work with that. He can't work with a duel against one of the most famed warriors of his time and lose, it would be seen as extremely reckless as losing would collapse his army and make things worse for Fan. While for Guan Yu, he runs a big risk challenging for duel (like Xu Huang accepting) and risked being seen as seeking to glory hog.

One can question why Guan Yu wasn't more quickwitted, I do think your not going to get much good with being second to make the offer. Note none of the effects you were hoping for seem to have happened with Guan Yu's army, it was unlikely to work on Xu Huang's.

sorry, i weren't clear what sacked was about. but it does mean the same thing you said. He was killed after the Hanzhong campaign. But for many reasons, it just Liu Bei used this because he really said as if he objecting with the campaign. it did said Liu Bei do bears grudges on him for his mockery and prediction that Bei would lose Hanzhong few years after he taken it.

Well, whatever is that, Zhang Yu was never meant to object with the campaign. because, why would he objected? taking a city to ensure the safety of Yizhou even his own family? objecting, that would meant he was pro-Cao, would rather lose Yizhou to Cao instead to Liu Bei right? and Liu Bei were right in killing him, since he was a mule.


Liu Bei's excuse was the Liu will fall prediction that leaked out rather then Hanzhong one and yes the beard insults

The same reason most camapigns get object to, they think it will fail at that time or they don't get the full need (like Zhuge Liang didn't quite see the need for full scale mobilisation).

I would be more ok with the exection if not for 1) the grudge aspect, 2) Shu let others predict their fall with no consequences.

On your grand plan, it is inventive. Sima Yi on Meng Da, he already had an army ready to mobilize and wasn't winter, I don't know if your plan would have worked but you do have more flair then Guan Yu did so credit to you for that.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:46 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Off the top of my head, didn't his army collapse when they saw Lu Meng's treatment of their families? I'm not sure what forces Guan Yu had once that happened.

Guan Yu doesn't come across as a considerable tactician no


i think it was more likely the 30.000 wei soldier and the Luhun peasant rebel who followed him. Otherwise, i can't see why Yu Jin was on Wu's captive.

Wasn't he could fluently recites lines from an ancient history book Zuo zhuan?
I took that Guan Yu is a well educated individual, more than Zhang Fei is. If Zhang Fei has inventive flair, why Guan Yu doesn't?
Or should i answer that he is actually was at first, but his mind becomes rigid because of his victory over Yan Liang? This victory embedded on his mind, like charge first think later. i am sorry if i bring this up, it was easy for a person get lost just because their recent victory over a general who was said to be stronk and fierce.

Back then? We don't tend to get details when that happens, usually a "so and so got false reputation but governor awesome-pants saw it was false and refused to give appointment or recommended to court, so and so later turned out be false." Usually for unknown reasons. Officials seen as getting too close could be damaged by the fall but usually those officials are unnamed (one could probably get a few such things wrong like soothsayers could be wrong or a general lose a battle). If they recommended the person and they turned to be a traitor, it could see a sacking (Zhong Yao with Wei Fang) or even worse (Hao Pu committed suicide over Yin Fan).


neither the two individual you named there were a good talent spotter like ZGL is though. More likely they are like a spotter of those share similarity to them, so your reference kinda off a little bit about how to spot talent is. :?

I'm more curious on how ZGL spot Fei Yi and Jiang Wan than how Zhong Yao recommend Wei Feng, Hao Pu recommend Yin Fan is. Both exhibit similarity with the person they recommend. Like Zhong Yao's son who turned to be traitorous and how Hao Pu get duped twice.



Didn't he then wait for reinforcements?

I get why Xu Huang did it, made sense form his position to try to lift moral. I just don't think Guan Yu was wrong to be a bit surprised

There is a risk that it would unnerve his army true but he can work with that. He can't work with a duel against one of the most famed warriors of his time and lose, it would be seen as extremely reckless as losing would collapse his army and make things worse for Fan. While for Guan Yu, he runs a big risk challenging for duel (like Xu Huang accepting) and risked being seen as seeking to glory hog.

One can question why Guan Yu wasn't more quickwitted, I do think your not going to get much good with being second to make the offer. Note none of the effects you were hoping for seem to have happened with Guan Yu's army, it was unlikely to work on Xu Huang's.


do you think a newly arrived men (reinforcement) are ready to fight? we dont know how far this "relief force" traveled, they more or less exhausted.
oh no no, nothing wrong with surprised especially from guy whose supposed to be your "bro" on the battlefield. and your "bro" even make use of your friendship to figure out your thought pattern and played you right into your dear "bro" hands. sounds like a nice "bro" right?

Xu Huang is a clever and crafty man, him shouting those line was to raise morale, but also to figure out Guan Yu's thought pattern is. By looking at those response, he knew exactly Guan Yu will seriously respond to every action he make, therefore easy to be played right onto his hand. I'm sorry but i had to say this, but this was what sort of man Xu Huang was. Now who was too naive here?

i'm started to get annoyed for repeating this, but i will, as a reminder. You dont casually approach and chat with a guy from enemy nation, even if he was your dear "bro". You dont talk to him, then he wont had any chance to shout that line to raise morale for his men either.

Now i ask you this, what sort of image imprinted on your men's mind when you casually approach and had a chat with a person from enemy nation in the middle of battle? negative or positive image will be imprinted in their mind?

no, hes not quickwitted, but dense. for uttering "what are you talking about, bro?" line. if i was there i would shout: "of course he would do that, hes your bloody enemy right now, are you too stupid to realize that??"
now you know what i'm talking about? you disagree with me for his surprised reaction. was that your bias toward a person who critically judge Guan Yu?
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:42 pm

i think it was more likely the 30.000 wei soldier and the Luhun peasant rebel who followed him. Otherwise, i can't see why Yu Jin was on Wu's captive.

Wasn't he could fluently recites lines from an ancient history book Zuo zhuan?
I took that Guan Yu is a well educated individual, more than Zhang Fei is. If Zhang Fei has inventive flair, why Guan Yu doesn't?
Or should i answer that he is actually was at first, but his mind becomes rigid because of his victory over Yan Liang? This victory embedded on his mind, like charge first think later. i am sorry if i bring this up, it was easy for a person get lost just because their recent victory over a general who was said to be stronk and fierce.


Guan Yu's SGZ says his army deserted
Quán had already occupied Jiānglíng and captured all the wives and children of Yǔ’s soldiers, and Yǔ’s army therefore all deserted
(all probably exgeratted but fair to say, army collapsed). Yu Jin would have likely been in Guan Yu's camp till the end

According to one annotation yes.

Being well educated or good with books doesn't make one a good tactician. Zhang Fei clearly had a skilled miliatry mind, whatever his failings as a person as a leader, Guan Yu simply never shows particular tactical flair. He doesn't seem to have been considered a tactical idiot or dense but we see no spark either

neither the two individual you named there were a good talent spotter like ZGL is though. More likely they are like a spotter of those share similarity to them, so your reference kinda off a little bit about how to spot talent is. :?

I'm more curious on how ZGL spot Fei Yi and Jiang Wan than how Zhong Yao recommend Wei Feng, Hao Pu recommend Yin Fan is. Both exhibit similarity with the person they recommend. Like Zhong Yao's son who turned to be traitorous and how Hao Pu get duped twice.


In fairness, you asked I see.
So, what happen if the hearsay or eye-witnesses was wrong and only just exaggerating it up?
and I gave two notable examples. Hao Pu was a gullible figure but he reached rank of seven ministers, Zhong Yao was many things but I agree, doubled checked and not a talent spotter. Zhong Hui was about five when Zhong Yao died so that doesn't reflect on Yao

Zhuge Liang likely knew Jiang Wan from when Jiang Wan joined in Jing, Jiang Wan had local reputation by time he got into trouble with Liu Bei, presumably Jiang Wan did a good ob in the Secretariat after that and time on Zhuge Liang's staff would have furthered Liang's views on him. Fei Yi had good connections and spent time in positions meant for youths of promise/connection at court.

That gave Zhuge Liang plenty of time to meet the two in their duties and in his circles at court, to gain an impression of them as intelligent able figure. Like you say, Zhuge Liang was a man with an eye for talent.

do you think a newly arrived men (reinforcement) are ready to fight? we dont know how far this "relief force" traveled, they more or less exhausted.


Yes. Generally the idea for reinforcements is they arrive in a position to act immediately.

oh no no, nothing wrong with surprised especially from guy whose supposed to be your "bro" on the battlefield. and your "bro" even make use of your friendship to figure out your thought pattern and played you right into your dear "bro" hands. sounds like a nice "bro" right?

Xu Huang is a clever and crafty man, him shouting those line was to raise morale, but also to figure out Guan Yu's thought pattern is. By looking at those response, he knew exactly Guan Yu will seriously respond to every action he make, therefore easy to be played right onto his hand. I'm sorry but i had to say this, but this was what sort of man Xu Huang was. Now who was too naive here?


In fairness, Xu Huang didn't speak to Guan Yu of miliatry affairs or anything more then "common life." which seems the general etiquette for such situations. The text and tone don't seem to suggest an attempt to figure things out or trick Guan Yu. At worst I consider Xu Huang a bit rude for what he did

i'm started to get annoyed for repeating this, but i will, as a reminder. You dont casually approach and chat with a guy from enemy nation, even if he was your dear "bro". You dont talk to him, then he wont had any chance to shout that line to raise morale for his men either.

Now i ask you this, what sort of image imprinted on your men's mind when you casually approach and had a chat with a person from enemy nation in the middle of battle? negative or positive image will be imprinted in their mind?


Repeating something doesn't mean it is correct. Your declaring it was wrong to do so but the evidence that was seen as such? Where was it condemned? Where was it seen as unusual? Nobody at the time or in the commentators afterwards felt chatting was wrong, that they chattered itself isn't considered the extraordinary and unusual "this must be recorded" thing but what happened in it (ie Xu Huang's declaration) is why it is in the texts (via annotation). The way it ended was the unusual thing, not that they were chatting.

It may seem strange to us now in a very partisan age but this sort of thing happened. There were risks but more about accusations of disloyalty then the actual chat, people had friends across divides (civil war after all), that was accepted though not risk free, they talked (and seems an etiquette of what one could talk about and how to behave) and wrote.

Xu Huang's shout out is notable becuase he was the only one who used such chats to do something like that so the risk Guan Yu faced on that was low.

If they are old friends? Nice for them.

no, hes not quickwitted, but dense. for uttering "what are you talking about, bro?" line. if i was there i would shout: "of course he would do that, hes your bloody enemy right now, are you too stupid to realize that??"
now you know what i'm talking about? you disagree with me for his surprised reaction. was that your bias toward a person who critically judge Guan Yu?


You might not have got a positive reaction for that.

My bias towards who exactly? Sorry I'm not sure who your referring to when I'm biased towards said person. Yes I disagree with you about the incident, not sure what connection that has with bias.

Most of the 3kingdom community critically judge Guan Yu, I don't have an issue with that as we should do that for all (unless you mean critic in a bad way, in which case, I do think people have the balance wrong).
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:32 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Guan Yu's SGZ says his army deserted
Quán had already occupied Jiānglíng and captured all the wives and children of Yǔ’s soldiers, and Yǔ’s army therefore all deserted
(all probably exgeratted but fair to say, army collapsed). Yu Jin would have likely been in Guan Yu's camp till the end

According to one annotation yes.

Being well educated or good with books doesn't make one a good tactician. Zhang Fei clearly had a skilled miliatry mind, whatever his failings as a person as a leader, Guan Yu simply never shows particular tactical flair. He doesn't seem to have been considered a tactical idiot or dense but we see no spark either


I find it doubtful for Yu jin to stay on Guan Yu's camp till the end since his 30.000 men were most likely went to surrender to Wu. I don't know how fast his army were to collapse, i don't know what is it mean by collapse either, so im gonna take your word of it.

Did you know why i mention Zuo Zhuan? these book overarching theme is that haughty, evil, and stupid individuals generally bring disaster upon themselves, while those who are good, wise, and humble are usually justly rewarded. it also recorded of many great battle on Chunqiu Annals.
I could reread SGZ and/or ZJTT like hundreds of time, but still unable to recite it precisely what written in there.
He could even recite Zuo Zhuan fluently like it was on the back of his head, this shown he displaying an incredible memory. and yet, Guan Yu behaves as such... he fail to grasp the meaning inside it, wasn't he is now the haughty, evil and stupid individuals mentioned on the book?

Now if i reread the fancheng battle again and again, how he lose is like ever written on Zuo Zhuan on certain individual. feels like he read these books are because he fascinated with this individual and was trying to copy him but fail? i'm not accusing him being a plagiarist, i felt like how coincidental he did was the same as this individual.

even if he doesn't have tactical flair like Zhang Fei is, he is more or less know the basic. Like troop placement, camp placement etc. from the look of it, he doesn't seems to know these either. He is more or less looked like Lu Bu now.


In fairness, you asked I see.
So, what happen if the hearsay or eye-witnesses was wrong and only just exaggerating it up?
and I gave two notable examples. Hao Pu was a gullible figure but he reached rank of seven ministers, Zhong Yao was many things but I agree, doubled checked and not a talent spotter. Zhong Hui was about five when Zhong Yao died so that doesn't reflect on Yao

Zhuge Liang likely knew Jiang Wan from when Jiang Wan joined in Jing, Jiang Wan had local reputation by time he got into trouble with Liu Bei, presumably Jiang Wan did a good ob in the Secretariat after that and time on Zhuge Liang's staff would have furthered Liang's views on him. Fei Yi had good connections and spent time in positions meant for youths of promise/connection at court.

That gave Zhuge Liang plenty of time to meet the two in their duties and in his circles at court, to gain an impression of them as intelligent able figure. Like you say, Zhuge Liang was a man with an eye for talent.


I see.

Sorry about this but, being gullible doesn't limit Hao Pu to climb up rank of seven ministers though.


In fairness, Xu Huang didn't speak to Guan Yu of miliatry affairs or anything more then "common life." which seems the general etiquette for such situations. The text and tone don't seem to suggest an attempt to figure things out or trick Guan Yu. At worst I consider Xu Huang a bit rude for what he did


No, he claimed its was a matter of states when Guan Yu asked him what is he talk about those reward thing, therefore he gave an impression he was a dutiful and serious man. Then he spread rumors of an attack, digging a ditch and Guan Yu reacted the way he wanted Yu to act, therefore he played Guan Yu right onto his hand. Like i said, Xu Huang uses his friendship to outwit Yu. I get why he get close to Zhang Liao, but Xu Huang doesn't seems to have any of Zhang Liao's trait. So he could use anything he can to achieve victory.

Being rude to your enemy is not unusual though, more overly it was rather common for an enemy to provoke or mock each other on battlefield. It was rather uncommon for Guan Yu to talk to guy from enemy states though, treating him as if he was your friend, it was like the enemy is your friend, and your friend is your enemy.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:42 pm

Sorry for delayed response, been a busy period

I find it doubtful for Yu jin to stay on Guan Yu's camp till the end since his 30.000 men were most likely went to surrender to Wu. I don't know how fast his army were to collapse, i don't know what is it mean by collapse either, so im gonna take your word of it.

Did you know why i mention Zuo Zhuan? these book overarching theme is that haughty, evil, and stupid individuals generally bring disaster upon themselves, while those who are good, wise, and humble are usually justly rewarded. it also recorded of many great battle on Chunqiu Annals.
I could reread SGZ and/or ZJTT like hundreds of time, but still unable to recite it precisely what written in there.
He could even recite Zuo Zhuan fluently like it was on the back of his head, this shown he displaying an incredible memory. and yet, Guan Yu behaves as such... he fail to grasp the meaning inside it, wasn't he is now the haughty, evil and stupid individuals mentioned on the book?

Now if i reread the fancheng battle again and again, how he lose is like ever written on Zuo Zhuan on certain individual. feels like he read these books are because he fascinated with this individual and was trying to copy him but fail? i'm not accusing him being a plagiarist, i felt like how coincidental he did was the same as this individual.

even if he doesn't have tactical flair like Zhang Fei is, he is more or less know the basic. Like troop placement, camp placement etc. from the look of it, he doesn't seems to know these either. He is more or less looked like Lu Bu now.


Yu Jin was likely kept at Guan Yu's HQ, separated from his soldiers and would have had more difficulty escaping or drifting away

Haughty yes, evil no, stupid unlikely. Some people can be great scholars but not able to apply it in practise.

There is no evidence he didn't know troop and camp placement. We only get one camapign where we get to see Guan Yu's abilities as a commander, he lost sure but he was up against two of Wei's best commanders after a siege, it happens. If Jing hadn't been attacked, Shu would have been content with that camapign

I see.

Sorry about this but, being gullible doesn't limit Hao Pu to climb up rank of seven ministers though.


Indeed, thus the defence of him

No, he claimed its was a matter of states when Guan Yu asked him what is he talk about those reward thing, therefore he gave an impression he was a dutiful and serious man. Then he spread rumors of an attack, digging a ditch and Guan Yu reacted the way he wanted Yu to act, therefore he played Guan Yu right onto his hand. Like i said, Xu Huang uses his friendship to outwit Yu. I get why he get close to Zhang Liao, but Xu Huang doesn't seems to have any of Zhang Liao's trait. So he could use anything he can to achieve victory.

Being rude to your enemy is not unusual though, more overly it was rather common for an enemy to provoke or mock each other on battlefield. It was rather uncommon for Guan Yu to talk to guy from enemy states though, treating him as if he was your friend, it was like the enemy is your friend, and your friend is your enemy.


I was referring to the conversation before that moment, your referring to what happens afterwards. The rumours failed to work and there is no indication Xu Huang was able to use Guan Yu knowledge (or attempted to) as a tactical advantage, they fought and he won in battle. One, annotation, statement seems a bit much to read into being diffirent from Zhang Liao or using anything he can

Yes foes could try to provoke each other though they could also be civil. No it wasn't that uncommon to chat, thus the established etiquette for such a thing and no, it was not "like the enemy is your friend". Guan Yu was friends with Xu Huang from time before they were on two warring sides, it was understood such things happened and you could retain such friendships.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:34 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Yu Jin was likely kept at Guan Yu's HQ, separated from his soldiers and would have had more difficulty escaping or drifting away

Haughty yes, evil no, stupid unlikely. Some people can be great scholars but not able to apply it in practise.

There is no evidence he didn't know troop and camp placement. We only get one camapign where we get to see Guan Yu's abilities as a commander, he lost sure but he was up against two of Wei's best commanders after a siege, it happens. If Jing hadn't been attacked, Shu would have been content with that camapign


np.

no, there is some evidence said that Guan Yu made two encampment and both of them were far from each other, thus his defensive line were easily broken. Liu Bei are still right in placing the encampment near to each other in order to prevent such exploit, only the place he made encampment were at the wrong place.

i mean, darn man. Its such an important campaign, to made such tactical error is truly a failure as a commander. My view point on how good commander supposed to be is differ than yours, I'm sorry for disagreeing his ability as a commander, he made such critical error, so i can't acknowledge him as one. He may be good in battle, but that ability stops there. He never was a good commander. Even Lu Bu still better commander than Guan Yu was.


I was referring to the conversation before that moment, your referring to what happens afterwards. The rumours failed to work and there is no indication Xu Huang was able to use Guan Yu knowledge (or attempted to) as a tactical advantage, they fought and he won in battle. One, annotation, statement seems a bit much to read into being diffirent from Zhang Liao or using anything he can

Yes foes could try to provoke each other though they could also be civil. No it wasn't that uncommon to chat, thus the established etiquette for such a thing and no, it was not "like the enemy is your friend". Guan Yu was friends with Xu Huang from time before they were on two warring sides, it was understood such things happened and you could retain such friendships.


If you're an expert in profiling, you might be able to catch a thing or two about your opponents psychological and behavioral characteristics, then use them to your advantage. That's what a strategist or a skilled commander usually do, to stay one step ahead of your opponents. This usually done in conversation, observation via speech, reaction, determination, you name it
Guan Yu is a type who slow to react on fast changing of circumstances, therefore easy to figure out and beaten. Yes, he is unbeatable in close combat, but when comes in outwitting the opponent, he has none of these. See, even Pang De can beaten him several times, if not because of those natural disaster (flooding), Guan Yu would never be able to make a headway against Pang De, let alone Xu Huang.
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