What do you hate?

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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:44 pm

Mitsunari wrote:
I asked you plainly, and clearly, if your response was taken from a textbook, or gleaned firsthand? That was all. I have my answer, so thank you.

My perspectives are from a purely 'experience'-oriented ethos, so I may not have acquired the same knowledge on this subject as your good self, forgive my lack of correct terminology and so forth.


Not sure with your angle here, but unless I'm saying things which need to be quoted/sourced you don't need to worry about where my insights come from and more about what is said? Just not sure where you're going with all this.

When someone approaches rebuke, persecution and self-preservation in a manner different to your own, as long as it doesn't involve battering them senseless or worse, I'd say it's passable hmm?

Furthermore
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I guess it depends on what 'passable' means and by whose standards? If I was advising a young kid who was getting called names, I wouldn't advise him to simply call them names back. It just doesn't seem neither a mature nor productive way to defend one's beliefs/self for any party involved.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:48 pm

Mitsunari wrote:See, I find it amusing that Atheists forge 'factions' and exhibit hallmarks of being zealots?? There is no basis for their 'belief' system, it's redundant. It's almost like pretending you're eating a Big Mac and actually believing you're eating it...poor analogy, I know, I just fancied a Big Mac. lol

I think I disagree with you here Mittens my old lad. I think not believing in anything at all is a step in its faith in itself. There is no conclusive proof whatsoever that no power exists in the same way there is no complete proof that the Christian God exists, either way it’s a step of faith.

Shikanosuke wrote:With all due respect, unless your goal is to cause a debate, by itself being criticized alone doesn't mean that youre doing something right.



I understand where you’re coming from Suke but we’re told in the Bible that being a Christian is so counter cultural that we will cause offense by our mere existence and for stating our views. As you say this often leads to discussions on Christianity and you’d be surprised how often that leads to people being converted.

Shikanosuke wrote:Does really that make them ignorant, or does it just mean they need to include the context? And whose context is correct? The literalist view or the interpretive view? or?


Well generally anything taken out of context is bad. In all fairness many Christians, and evangelical Christians are guilty of this as well, take scripture out of its original context as well. However I would say that if you want to understand any text you need to understand what the original author meant it to say. Maybe this is why I didn’t do as well as I should have in English because I refused to put some made up interpretation on to the author. :lol:
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:01 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I understand where you’re coming from Suke but we’re told in the Bible that being a Christian is so counter cultural that we will cause offense by our mere existence and for stating our views. As you say this often leads to discussions on Christianity and you’d be surprised how often that leads to people being converted.


Well, the Bible was written in a time where being Christian was actually counter-cultural. Nowadays, not being Christian (in the Western world) is more counter-cultural (though I know many scared Christians who wildly proclaim differently). My problem here is we have no context on the discussions this chap is participating in. He concludes that if he's causing a stir, then he's therefore doing something correctly. For all we know he's walking around condemning heretics and trying to exorcise people. I have no problems, of course, with polite and helpful discourse between believers and non-believers.


Well generally anything taken out of context is bad. In all fairness many Christians, and evangelical Christians are guilty of this as well, take scripture out of its original context as well. However I would say that if you want to understand any text you need to understand what the original author meant it to say. Maybe this is why I didn’t do as well as I should have in English because I refused to put some made up interpretation on to the author. :lol:


I certainly agree. Context is key. However, we're talking the subjective areas here. You've got literalists who don't care what the context says. You've got people who disagree on what the context is.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:08 pm

I disagree. The Bible talks about being part of a community and putting God above all else. this is in a time when materialism and individualism are absolutely rampant. I don't think its possible to be any more counter cultural than being a Christian if you are actually living as the Bible describes.

So you make a good point on what the correct context being subject to opinion but I do believe there is an objective answer as well (not saying I'm right just saying there is a right answer there) and there is definite space for a good discussion there. However pulling one verse out of the Bible without any context is always going to be miss representative of what the Bible is actually saying. That is sadly the kind of discussion I face with many non-Christians.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Mitsunari » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:16 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:Just not sure where you're going with all this.


Ditto. I didn't dissect a few remarks posted in a relaxed forum sub-section, with a haughty manner befitting someone with a superiority complex - and then perpetuate it with more 'well, my source material views are right, yours are wrong' crap.

I didn't realise I had to justify my life experiences and their relevance to hatred, to you, Shikanosuke. And no, I'm not interested in any more of your pontificating rhetoric, I shall refuse to read it. Thanks.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:24 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I disagree. The Bible talks about being part of a community and putting God above all else. this is in a time when materialism and individualism are absolutely rampant. I don't think its possible to be any more counter cultural than being a Christian if you are actually living as the Bible describes.


Well, this puts you in that category of Christians I was talking about. The 'its so hard to be a real Christian these days!' is that rallying cry. And that is fine. To this point my opinion is that its a farce, it's not harder today than it was on day 1 to be a "real" Christian. It just takes discipline, principles, and dedication. But that wasn't what I was alluding to, and likely what the Bible talks about either. No one is trying to actually persecute and kill you (again, in the Western world) for being of the Christian faith.


So you make a good point on what the correct context being subject to opinion but I do believe there is an objective answer as well (not saying I'm right just saying there is a right answer there) and there is definite space for a good discussion there. However pulling one verse out of the Bible without any context is always going to be miss representative of what the Bible is actually saying. That is sadly the kind of discussion I face with many non-Christians.


Well, I think we theists have to own that. The Bible is an old text, and its full of alot stuff from different authors. There is many things in there difficult to explain to non-believers and considering how many times the text is misused by its own adherents we can't be offended when those who take aim at it use it against us, correct context or not.


Mitsunari wrote:
Ditto. I didn't dissect a few remarks posted in a relaxed forum sub-section, with a haughty manner befitting someone with a superiority complex - and then perpetuate it with more 'well, my source material views are right, yours are wrong' crap.


No one has ever brought up source materials, sans an odd question about 'hey you ideas, did you get them from a textbook"? That isn't what you did? No what you seem to have done is thrown atheists under the bus and try 'lol' at them with a poorly thought out idea by advising someone to yell lounder than the next idiot.

I didn't realise I had to justify my life experiences and their relevance to hatred, to you, Shikanosuke. And no, I'm not interested in any more of your pontificating rhetoric, I shall refuse to read it. Thanks.


No one has brought up 'life experiences' but you, and I'm still not sure why they keep cropping up as something of import. But cool, don't read or read. Also don't bandwagon jump all over atheists until you understand what atheism is, and seemingly, what theism is.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:16 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:The 'its so hard to be a real Christian these days!' is that rallying cry. And that is fine. To this point my opinion is that its a farce, it's not harder today than it was on day 1 to be a "real" Christian.


I don’t think I ever said it’s harder to be a Christian today than any other time. What I thought I said was that it is always hard to be a Christian because our faith is radically opposed to human nature. The established church (talking as an Anglican) has on a fairly regular basis perverted the message of the gospel meaning that living out a Christian faith has often put you at odds with others proclaiming to also be Christians.

Shikanosuke wrote:No one is trying to actually persecute and kill you (again, in the Western world) for being of the Christian faith.

You’re right in as much no-one has tried to kill me by my faith but I have faced bullying, physical violence, exclusion from social groups and persecution on other levels for my views.

Shikanosuke wrote:Well, I think we theists have to own that. The Bible is an old text, and its full of alot stuff from different authors. There is many things in there difficult to explain to non-believers and considering how many times the text is misused by its own adherents we can't be offended when those who take aim at it use it against us, correct context or not.


Your right that we shouldn’t be surprised but that doesn’t mean it’s ok. Ignorance, especially when its deliberate (having studied theology I’ve come in touch with a lot of people who did know that they were misquoting the bible and did so deliberately) should be corrected, albeit generally in a friendly and amicable way.

I understand where Mittens was coming from but when I have faced abuse for my faith I’ve tried very hard to turn the other check and answer in a peacefully way.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:22 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
I don’t think I ever said it’s harder to be a Christian today than any other time. What I thought I said was that it is always hard to be a Christian because our faith is radically opposed to human nature. The established church (talking as an Anglican) has on a fairly regular basis perverted the message of the gospel meaning that living out a Christian faith has often put you at odds with others proclaiming to also be Christians.


Fair enough. My apologies for attributing to you a different stance than what you were stating. The one I mentioned is pretty fervent in America right now.

You’re right in as much no-one has tried to kill me by my faith but I have faced bullying, physical violence, exclusion from social groups and persecution on other levels for my views.


I find that fairly remarkable. Amazing even. In America the opposite is largely true, especially in the South. Here, atheists are subject to stigma and potential attacks. Christians, on the other hand, are not persecuted or subject to any bullying or physical violence.


Your right that we shouldn’t be surprised but that doesn’t mean it’s ok. Ignorance, especially when its deliberate (having studied theology I’ve come in touch with a lot of people who did know that they were misquoting the bible and did so deliberately) should be corrected, albeit generally in a friendly and amicable way.

I understand where Mittens was coming from but when I have faced abuse for my faith I’ve tried very hard to turn the other check and answer in a peacefully way.


As you will. And that really was part of the crux of my problem with his response to Fledgling. As a Christian, the response to criticism should be pretty clear. As a mature individual, the response also shouldn't be to simply yell louder than the guy criticizing your faith.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:58 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
Fair enough. My apologies for attributing to you a different stance than what you were stating. The one I mentioned is pretty fervent in America right now.


Its prevalent here as well and I can understand it, human nature leads us to always think that our suffering is really bad. When in reality we are all facing challenges and in every era Christians have faced challenges and problems.

Shikanosuke wrote:I find that fairly remarkable. Amazing even. In America the opposite is largely true, especially in the South. Here, atheists are subject to stigma and potential attacks. Christians, on the other hand, are not persecuted or subject to any bullying or physical violence.


Ah, but America is very different to Britain. In my school year of 250, I knew of 5 others who went to church. Maybe another 5 may have also done so but were to ashamed to say so. The vast majority were agnostics or had some vague sense of believing in the Christian God but probably didn't believe in Jesus. But even then the Christians were out numbered by your genuine committed atheists.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:22 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
Its prevalent here as well and I can understand it, human nature leads us to always think that our suffering is really bad. When in reality we are all facing challenges and in every era Christians have faced challenges and problems.


Absolutely. But here its often just a rallying cry for conservative politics.


Ah, but America is very different to Britain. In my school year of 250, I knew of 5 others who went to church. Maybe another 5 may have also done so but were to ashamed to say so. The vast majority were agnostics or had some vague sense of believing in the Christian God but probably didn't believe in Jesus. But even then the Christians were out numbered by your genuine committed atheists.


Well, I certainly find the number disparity pretty fascinating. But the fact that this disparity therefore leads to violence and actual persecution against what is the most Western faith there is surprising.
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