What do you hate?

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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:24 pm

Oh dear, I didn't mean to start a religious debate.........
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shozuhn » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:36 pm

Fledgling Dragon wrote:Oh dear, I didn't mean to start a religious debate.........


I don't think they'res anything to worry about here. Everyone here seems smart enough to debate without it affecting anything. And as long as everyone remains polite, then I see nothing wrong with religious debate. May be the wrong thread for it however... I guess I do dislike aggressive atheists with something to prove tho. (Please note that I'm not directing that at anyone here... just speaking in general. You can read my last 2 post and decide for your self which side you stand on with me if you are an atheist, lol)
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:05 pm

Shozuhn wrote:I guess I do dislike aggressive atheists with something to prove tho. (Please note that I'm not directing that at anyone here... just speaking in general. You can read my last 2 post and decide for your self which side you stand on with me if you are an atheist, lol)


Quite understandable. No one likes aggressive atheists or aggressive theists/Christians. Polite goes along way.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:49 pm

True, true.

Shozuhn:

Believe me, the only reason I posted that here was because I know that it wouldn't turn ugly. I knew there would be no flaming. This just isn't the right category.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby SunXia » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:25 pm

Shozuhn wrote: They are trying to spread something that they see as a great thing to possess

Where as someone who does not believe in God may feel they are bringing you knowledge and understanding which are also great things to possess!! The point is, everyone has their own point of view and will want to present it as such, I would consider being forced to deny yourself because, for example a religion says it is OK to be Homosexual but not to act on it, to be entirely a negative way to live your life!! You may say "but God loves you" and think that should be the end all of it but what does that do if this God's love comes at the cost of living your life in misery?? So an atheist could see sharing their knowledge of the Bible and how it has a few ugly sides to it, as liberating that person who is living in misery!!

It all depends on how you see it!!

Shozuhn wrote:If the outcome of you winning the debate can only bring negative, however, why enter the debate? Your intentions may not be mean or spiteful, but the result can accomplish that none the less.
I just provided an example of how an atheist can believe they are helping someone!! Living life as a theist is not the only way to be happy, in fact some people being forced t live life that way because they know no different are very unhappy so why shouldn't a person enter their points just because thy are an atheist?? You see it as wholly negative but others do not, it is very subjective!!

Shozuhn wrote:I think you should just smile and walk away from the conversation. Leave the believer to their belief and acknowledge that from their point of view, whether you agree or not, they were trying to add to the quality of your life
Again, it shouldn't be alright for a believer to tr to convince me of their point of view without me being afforded the same right, that's just inequality right there!!

Shozuhn wrote:meanwhile, you have nothing such to offer.

Actually I have seen people pick and choose which aspects of the Bible to present in he "We are good Christians" light!! Not every Christian would know some of the, what I would consider ridiculous, stories in the Bible so if I can present these stories to them I would consider that I big positive, I have given them knowledge with which they can choose to do as they like either reaffirm their beliefs or go elsewhere!! I could counter they have nothing to offer me just as easily as you saying I have nothing to offer them!!

Shozuhn wrote:But if they approach very kindly and friendly, then you really shouldn't do them the dis service of trying to talk them out of what they believe.
But they are trying to talk me into believing something, trying to convince me to change my way of life so why is that not a disservice to me but if I was to do it back it's a disservice to them?? That's no equal treatment at all!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shozuhn » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:29 am

A person "living in misery" because they are Christian isn't very likely to be trying to start a conversation about bringing you to understand God to begin with...
Also, of all those ridiculous stories you are talking about, I'm sure they're all in the old testament. And since Christians are suppose to be living by the new testament, those stories should be almost irrelevant to them anyways.
My basic point is, there are a lot of people who have hope, and keep a warm feeling in their heart based solely off the knowledge that there is a God that loves them. I don't understand how anyone could have such hope and a warm feeling in their heart based solely off the knowledge that there is no God. This is why I say an atheist has nothing to offer.
But if you do someone who is living in misery due to an overdose of badly interpreted Christian philosophy, then by all means try to sooth them any ways possible. Even if that means convincing them that their is no God to begin with.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:44 am

Shozuhn wrote:Also, of all those ridiculous stories you are talking about, I'm sure they're all in the old testament. And since Christians are suppose to be living by the new testament, those stories should be almost irrelevant to them anyways.


Sorry, what?

Christians believe we live under the New Covenant but that doesn't mean we reject the Old Testament!

Anyway I can see why an atheist who thinks that a religious person is suffering because of their faith or when the conversation has come up naturally would argue their side. But I get that there isn't the same motivation to go out if your way to provoke the conversation.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:52 am

On the basic question of why atheists might try to be persuade religious people against faith: Some will do it because thy are militant jerks, some will do it for similar zeal of "making life better" in the way Shi mentioned (the idea that faith hampers thinking) that some religious missionaries went about spreading their faith, some because they have seen the damage religion can do, some will just be a friendly debate, some because the faithful are being jerks (like Sun Xia mentioned).

There are times in my life where my family and myself where being so hurt by the Church we follow, that a kind atheist may well have felt it helpful to try to wean us off faith.

If you can successfully convince a believer that God does not exist and cause them to question what they have believed their whole life, leaving them in doubt and despair; will you honestly walk away smiling just because you won a debate?


That assumes the only conclusion to people losing their faith is despair. It is a theme that keeps coming up, that only religion can give hope in the heart, that being an atheist is losing something and thus an atheist argument can only lead to negative results

I'm curious, why is it you view losing faith as only leading to bad things? I say this as a Catholic

think you should consider what you have to offer. They are trying to spread something that they see as a great thing to posses; that being the idea that there is a God watching over you that loves you.


That assumes the preacher is offering love and compassion, not fear, bigotry and hatred

I think you should just smile and walk away from the conversation. Leave the believer to their belief and acknowledge that from their point of view, whether you agree or not, they were trying to add to the quality of your life; meanwhile, you have nothing such to offer. Not only that, but if they're not of sound enough mind to debate you well, you can actually harm their mental state.


So it is ok to abuse others as long as your doing it for religious purposes? I agree with Sun Xia that if someone challenges her or tries to convert her, so should be able to do the same.

A person "living in misery" because they are Christian isn't very likely to be trying to start a conversation about bringing you to understand God to begin with...


Probably not quite that conversation but that might discuss religion more generally


Fledgling Dragon wrote:Oh dear, I didn't mean to start a religious debate.........


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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:58 pm

*Flees the Imperial Court*

The thing is, one must only trust in God, not in man. I never went to church, mainly because I feared they would be biased on their teachings (and there are many who are). I educated myself (mostly) on the faith, I read the Bible and made my own interpretations with no other influence other than the Lord.

Teachings laced with hate are poison, and those preachers are false. I would highly advise all of you not to take them as Men of God.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:00 pm

But if I am only a (hu)man, how can I decide which Men of God are truly the Men of God?? And, aren't all versions and translations of the Bible written by Man?? I mean the four Gospels don't all agree or have the same stories and weren't written at the same time with first-hand experience so ow can I choose one interpretation of a book written by Man, over another interpretation, to be true??

I get that you are saying that in your belief these things are true and that's fine but that is your interpretation of the Bible and everyone has their own interpretation of things!! This includes those who approach it with their own sense of enlightenment that has resulted in Atheism and made them happier as a result!!

It is great that the Bible has given you so much personally, I would not argue that point as, like I said, my Catholic background contributed much to my positive outlook in my adulthood!! However, there are times when the Bible is used to subjugate others, you may not agree that they are Men of God, but people from the Westborough Baptist Church, for example, cite the Bible as the source of their hatred, or at least, their interpretation of the Bible!!

The Bible is a massive book with many different authors contributing to its bindings which has caused many different contradictions and interpretations over the years both good and bad!! Many have used it as a source of their belief and done good works as Men of God in helping the sick and helpless over the centuries!! Others have used it as a weapon or an excuse to control the masses and wage war for power or to subjugate even their children by forcing them to attend services and kicking them out of the house if they decide they are not a believer!! There are many different negatives and positives and its great you get so many positives but many interpretations have resulted in negatives!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

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