What do you hate?

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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Mitsunari » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:14 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
Mitsunari wrote:@Shikanosuke

Since I have neither the time, patience or inclination to perpetuate this any longer, I'll ask you this:

Do you have children?

If you do, fair enough, if you don't; do NOT preach to me about 'mature' advice when you have no emotional frame of reference.


I don't have children of my own. I have taught children, however, and have nieces and nephews. I'm not sure what difference this makes though. I mean, not having children isn't a requisite for telling them not to injure other children or put their hand in a blender. So if this is a bit at 'well you dont have children, so you can't speak to the issue', then I'm not buying.

Advice is subjective, person to person, it's not a rigid formula - you'd do well to remember that.


That is the thing, it really isn't that person-to-person. If you think your advice is sage, fine. Defend it, don't prattle on about 'emotional frame of references' and 'life experiences'. As it is I found the advice you gave to be immature and not productive.

The situation as I found it was that Fledgling alleged he was being challenged/belittled/harassed by peers concerning his faith. Your advice, to 'fight fire with fire', is essentially telling him to do the same back to his peers. That is immature to me, and isn't productive in resolving the situation. If you feel differently, that is ok and I'm open to hearing why. But hearing about how you're being preached to in a haughty demeanor by someone without kids (and therefore cant voice an opinion?) is boring.


Until you DO have your own, you won't even know what I'm referring to. Mate.

I suppose this is where cultural and geographical differences are abound; I was taught to defend myself against anyone who wished me physical or emotional harm, but to use my discretion as to how I did so. When I see or hear of anyone being bullied, belittled or discriminated against, my advice to them (if I choose to impart it) is to counter it. Perhaps my advice to FD should have been less, I dunno, flippant? The reply was, however, catered for the circumstances, in a more relaxed sub-forum, only to be obvicerated by you.

Regardless of your 'input', my advice to anyone in the aforementioned circumstances would still be to 'fight fire with fire', or words to that effect. To you, it's immature, to me it's a damn sight more healthy than trying to reason with a zealous antagonist and hope for a productive outcome. And no, it doesn't usually involve 'yelling louder' than the next idiot, but if the circumstances dictated it...

But since you are quite adept at hair-splitting, I eagerly await your next dissection.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:26 pm

Mitsunari wrote:
Until you DO have your own, you won't even know what I'm referring to. Mate.


I'm sorry, this is nonsensical. If this was in reference to, say, the way a kid of your own made you feel about a subject then that would be one thing. But prudent advice giving isn't exclusive to the sole domain of those who spawn offspring.

I suppose this is where cultural and geographical differences are abound; I was taught to defend myself against anyone who wished me physical or emotional harm, but to use my discretion as to how I did so. When I see or hear of anyone being bullied, belittled or discriminated against, my advice to them (if I choose to impart it) is to counter it. Perhaps my advice to FD should have been less, I dunno, flippant? The reply was, however, catered for the circumstances, in a more relaxed sub-forum, only to be obvicerated by you.


My upbringing was little different. I was never told not to stand up for myself, or not to defend myself. Nor would I give that advice to Fledgling or any other kid. The problem is there is a difference between 'when someone hits you, defend yourself' than 'when someone ignorantly criticizes or insults your faith, ignorantly criticize or insult theirs back'. That makes no sense and doesn't reach any resolution. That is no different than telling a kid 'when someone calls you a name, call them one right back'. That isn't 'standing up for oneself', thats just encouraging them to engage in needless and endless confrontation. I don't think it very catered at all. I also don't believe you were meaning it to be malicious or disingenuous either. Not at all. Just don't think you thought it out.

EDIT: Is obvicerated a word? Not calling your grammar out by any means. Genuinely curious.

Regardless of your 'input', my advice to anyone in the aforementioned circumstances would still be to 'fight fire with fire', or words to that effect. To you, it's immature, to me it's a damn sight more healthy than trying to reason with a zealous antagonist and hope for a productive outcome. And no, it doesn't usually involve 'yelling louder' than the next idiot, but if the circumstances dictated it...


Mine wouldn't. I would tell them to either try to have a civil conversation with the antagonist or ignore it. Theological conversations are rarely won and engaging in them in the first place, especially in a public place, is a fool hearty endeavor. So when you advise someone to 'fight fire with fire' in the aforementioned circumstance, there is no other conclusion to be drawn than yelling back derogatory statements at the antagonists faith (or here, lack thereof). How that is healthy or mature, you'll have to spell out for me.

But since you are quite adept at hair-splitting, I eagerly await your next dissection.


It really isn't hair splitting at all. Its the distance between telling a kid to yell back at his classmate and leave it be. To engage in conversation/leave it be or to escalate a pointless confrontation.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Mitsunari » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:10 pm

In the context of hate/hatred, what really gets my goat is people who will discard anything you say like a soggy kleenex, dismiss your remarks as nonsensical without any 'outside of the box' thought and perpetuate something beyond rationality just to satisfy their own inflated ego.

Oh well, such is the world, etc.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:16 pm

Mitsunari wrote:In the context of hate/hatred, what really gets my goat is people who will discard anything you say like a soggy kleenex, dismiss your remarks as nonsensical without any 'outside of the box' thought and perpetuate something beyond rationality just to satisfy their own inflated ego.

Oh well, such is the world, etc.



Come come now :) . If you've something to actually discuss do so, engage and actually respond instead of going on about 'outside the box' and 'life experiences'. If not its just a useless sarcastic post with a thinly veiled insult.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shozuhn » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:20 pm

I personally never understood why an atheist or non-believer would try to "debate" a Christian about the existence of God to begin with. I mean, if a Christian chooses to talk to an atheist about God; they do so because they truly believe they have something that can encourage and offer hope to "the lost". They believe they are enriching the other person's life if they can bring them to know God.
But what is an atheist gaining if they can convince a Christian that God does not exist? It would seem to me that they are acting out of pure spite, and have a desire to deprive the believer of that good feeling they have in their heart to know God exists.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:23 am

Shozuhn wrote:I personally never understood why an atheist or non-believer would try to "debate" a Christian about the existence of God to begin with. I mean, if a Christian chooses to talk to an atheist about God; they do so because they truly believe they have something that can encourage and offer hope to "the lost". They believe they are enriching the other person's life if they can bring them to know God.
But what is an atheist gaining if they can convince a Christian that God does not exist? It would seem to me that they are acting out of pure spite, and have a desire to deprive the believer of that good feeling they have in their heart to know God exists.


Or to free them of their chains, so to speak. Furthermore many atheists will advance that extreme faith hampers critical thinking.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:29 am

Except that the Bible has entire sections (Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes) on wisdom and the sayings of clever men. The need for understanding and wisdom is quoted many times in the two.

But if you mean extreme as in-practically delusional- then disregard what I just said.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:12 am

Fledgling Dragon wrote:Except that the Bible has entire sections (Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes) on wisdom and the sayings of clever men. The need for understanding and wisdom is quoted many times in the two.

But if you mean extreme as in-practically delusional- then disregard what I just said.


My point was that atheists likely don't perceive convincing theists of error because they wish to deprive theists of something positive.
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby SunXia » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:32 pm

Shozuhn wrote:I personally never understood why an atheist or non-believer would try to "debate" a Christian about the existence of God to begin with. I mean, if a Christian chooses to talk to an atheist about God; they do so because they truly believe they have something that can encourage and offer hope to "the lost". They believe they are enriching the other person's life if they can bring them to know God.
But what is an atheist gaining if they can convince a Christian that God does not exist? It would seem to me that they are acting out of pure spite, and have a desire to deprive the believer of that good feeling they have in their heart to know God exists.

Well I don't think it's spite at all!!

If someone wants to preach to me about God then I will counter it with logic of my own and reasons why I don't believe in the God in the Bible and why I see the Bible as completely contradictory!! I don't see how presenting your own argument to convince others of your point of view is any more spiteful than "spreading the word" or as others see it, trying to browbeat people into following a certain religion!!

Challenging each others beliefs and lack of belief is healthy it forces us to examine ourselves either to reaffirm what we believe is true or to see what we believe to be the error of our ways!!

Personally, I was raised in the Roman Catholic faith and the messages I was taught about loving and respecting everyone are still very important to me!! However I see the inequality and mistreatment of others and I believe in true equality for everyone, you either have equality or you don't there is no partial equality, either everyone is afforded the same rights or they are not; when they are not, all I see are excuses!!

EDIT: Read back the original post and I certainly don't believe there is religious persecution going on at all. Socially people always find something to mock and its usually something they don't do themselves since what would be the point in mocking someone if you do it as well!! Doesn't the President still say after every address "God bless America" which, I think you would agree, is a very Christian thing to say!!

I have people coming up to me in the street telling me I am "Damned" for not believing in their beliefs, so I don't see how this is any different for someone mocking them right back!! I mean it may be your belief but its not polite to come up to someone and to tell them they are going to Burn in Hell for all Eternity, that's just rude!! But then people hide behind "Well I believe this so its ok for me to say it" I think we will just cease to exist when we die but I don't go up to people in the street and lecture them on this, I'm not that rude!!

Personally I don't mock people unless I'm quite close to them and its usually in a loving way!! But then I'm just an optimist!! But there's a lot of pessimism in the world and people that embrace this type of attitude will grasp onto things that are different and take the mick out of it! Everyday I have people making fun of me because I talk a lot and never shut up, am I offended?? No unless they are telling me to just shut up I just laugh because n the end, I talk a lot more than the average person, I know this is true my stats in work confirm this so I laugh and reply "Yeah I don't have an Off switch" or other such replies!! Every day I get mocked for carrying around a hot water bottle, am I offended?? No!! Do I feel persecuted?? Certainly not because, funny enough, I carry around a hot water bottle because I have a chronic physical illness that is agony so I do this when other people mostly wouldn't and laugh when people point it out!! Every day I get mocked for being a "nerd" because I love Comics and nobody in my workplace does because I love anime and again nobody there does etc but again am I being persecuted?? No!! I get mocked for not drinking anymore, am I being persecuted?? No!!

This is just Human nature, people see other people doing things they personally don't do thus don't associate it with being normal and thus begin to mock it to get a laugh either out of the target themselves or those around, its just something that happens in every day life!! Sure sometimes people can get aggressive but in those cases either walk away or report them for harassment and bullying if it gets too much!! I recently reported a woman in my team for being too aggressive with me and asked my manager to speak with her and the girl came out and apologized and thought she was joking and when realized was taking it too far, and now we're good friends and getting along fine!! Most of the time people aren't being bad but if they are there is always the option of getting out of there and reporting it to someone in authority because a confrontation will likely lead to anger and that helps no one!!

There comes a time when you have to accept "this is me and I won't make everyone happy" as not everyone will like you not everyone will agree with you and if they are trying to browbeat you I just accept that that is their opinion but if they continue then go further with higher authority!! But sometimes we just have to know what kind of people to avoid and when we can laugh at ourselves!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

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It is a CHOICE!!
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Re: What do you hate?

Unread postby Shozuhn » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:04 pm

Sun Xia:
If you can successfully convince a believer that God does not exist and cause them to question what they have believed their whole life, leaving them in doubt and despair; will you honestly walk away smiling just because you won a debate?
I think you should consider what you have to offer. They are trying to spread something that they see as a great thing to posses; that being the idea that there is a God watching over you that loves you.
If the outcome of you winning the debate can only bring negative, however, why enter the debate? Your intentions may not be mean or spiteful, but the result can accomplish that none the less. I think you should just smile and walk away from the conversation. Leave the believer to their belief and acknowledge that from their point of view, whether you agree or not, they were trying to add to the quality of your life; meanwhile, you have nothing such to offer. Not only that, but if they're not of sound enough mind to debate you well, you can actually harm their mental state.

*edit*

I believe we agree on the basic principle here Sun Xia. I mean, if the Christian is approaching rudely and trying to tell you that you're going to hell for not believing, then you shouldn't worry about how you respond so much. They are just jerks who don't really understand what the Bible they claim to follow actually says. But if they approach very kindly and friendly, then you really shouldn't do them the dis service of trying to talk them out of what they believe.
Last edited by Shozuhn on Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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