Official STAR WARS Thread

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Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:42 am

As per the request in the 'Death Before Dishonour?' thread.

Sun Fin wrote:Shockingly I couldn't find a Star Wars thread. One of you guys wanna make one and we can continue this discussion there :).


This topic should cover the Star Wars Trilogy, the Prequels and the various Extended Universe stories (including cartoons, novels, manga and video games). Since Star Wars is popular fiction and not literature, I felt that it belonged in The Pub rather than in the Literature, Academics and Philosophy sub-forum.

So, folks, as a conversation starter: Jedi or Sith? In the 'Death Before Dishonour?' thread I described my views as conforming roughly to those of the Grey Jedi or the New Jedi Order - the Augustinian puritanism of the Old Republic-era Jedi Order (the whole sex = Dark Side thing, and all of the messed-up conclusions that follow from it) kind of rubs me the wrong way. I think the Sith had some valid criticisms of the (Old) Jedi way, but through those criticisms they fell into a kind of solipsism which invalidated the moral ground they stood on.

... or we can bash the prequels. That's always fun! 8-)
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Qu Hui » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:13 am

I choose to bash the prequels!

In all seriousness, the sequels were a huge missed oppurtnity on Lucas's part to recreate the former glory of the Star Wars franchise. Episode One wasn't particularly bad, but it wasn't all that great. Qui Gon Jinn pretty much died to give character development to Anakin and Obi Wan, which was a shame that someone like him died and a sleezy jerk like Nute Gunray got to live until the third prequel. Darth Maul, too, was wasted potential- I think he would have made a better recourring antagonist than Grievous. The lovable Padme (the one with a spine) also makes her first appearance here.

The second movie is completely unforgivable. Anakin and Padame's love story is...well, horrible. They could have handled it much better than they did. The fight scenes were...meh, and I wish they wouldn't have set the clone army up as practically invincible. I don't remember much else, so we'll leave it at that.

The third movie wasn't a good setup for the Original Trilogy. Padme (somewhat carrying over from the second movie) has become weak-willed and her dying because of Anakin is convoluted. I would rather have her at least really die at a villian's hand. Palpatine's transformation was also a disappointment; I think it would have been much more fitting that the Dark Side rotted him from the inside out rather than have him age rapidly because of Force Lightning. Windu's death was sad, but nessissary I suppose. Padme's death scene was waaaaaay too drawn out and it completely ruined any emotional impact it would have had.

My memory's a bit rusty on the prequels, so forgive any discrepencies.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:24 am

Darth Revan or Revan is the best.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby S.Teague » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:30 am

I thought the third film was good for action but horrible for story. I mean, when my generation saw 'The Empire Strikes Back' it was shocking to learn that Vader was Luke's father. But when the next generation sees this, they'll already know. It'll take all the shock factor out of it, thus destroying one HUGE plot line's enjoyability. So I think too much information is disclosed in the third film. Also, remmember when Luke asks Leia about her real mother? She remmembers her, despite her death upon Leia's birth. Kind of wierd. :?
JarJar was just too goofy. Notice how little his role is in 2 & 3. Lucas almost removed him entirely.
Overall, 1-3 is enjoyable, but still seems to destroy the lovable memory of Star Wars in so many ways.
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That fairly well sums up 1-3.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:38 am

Who are your favourite Sith Lords or Apprentices?
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby S.Teague » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:44 am

I think that Darth Maul was done very well. His quiet nature was just perfect. From the expanded universe, I like Ajunta Pall. It was said that he was the very first Sith Lord. So that's very intriging. I've been working on some Star Wars fan-fic that is to end with that characters appearance. Every other character I use is one that I made up, untill him.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:48 am

I didn't like Darth Maul because he was ugly. :lol: . My favorite is Darth Revan. He so illlll.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:45 am

Ajunta Pall was kind of a wuss, if I'm remembering right. Even if his sword was completely badarse, he still made for the most whiny, useless freaking ghost ever - Dan Aykroyd would have wiped the floor with him, IMHO...

I'm also a fan of Revan - one of those Sith Lords who manages to be that much more awesome for his ambiguity, straddling the line between Light Side and Dark. But how do you know he wasn't uglier than Darth Maul? He always wore a full steel masque and body armour... (For that matter, I didn't think Maul was all that ugly, underneath all that face paint.)

I think it would have made the climactic fight in Episode I more interesting to have some repartee between Maul and Jinn... I still think Maul is pretty badarse, though.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby agga » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:21 am

i'm sorry, i liked the prequels, especially episode III. i mean... episode I had the pod race, which was great, and lots of marching robots, which was fun, and some alright light saber business. it was also dopey, and the gungans were stupid, and of course ** was especially embarrassing.

but, pod race and robot army, droids and lightsaber duels, that puts episode I over the top for me. it's like with the original star wars, the landspeeder scenes i always loved, and the bit where luke goes and looks at the two suns setting, and the jawa trawler with all the robots, and every scene with obi wan.. it's the stuff that was in the movies that i liked so much, not so much the story or the dialogue (though alec guiness' obi wan still holds up for me).

as for the sith-jedi stuff, i've basically accepted it as an amoral power struggle. the sith are bad, the jedi are good - but they're all dead. luke isn't a jedi, he's a superman. who cares whether or not darth vader kills the emperor in episode VI? he's still a bastard. luke's either a moron for putting so much effort into "redeeming" vader - or he's in on the power struggle, and he knows the only way to get to the emperor is by flipping his psychotic father over again (and he knows it's possible since vader expressed an interest already in overthrowing the emperor and ruling the empire himself, with luke). ROTJ and the other luke skywalker stuff really works if you think of him as being a machiavellian, charismatic superman out for power and revenge. it least, in my mind it works that way.

what was this thread about again?
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:38 am

agga wrote:i'm sorry, i liked the prequels, especially episode III. i mean... episode I had the pod race, which was great, and lots of marching robots, which was fun, and some alright light saber business. it was also dopey, and the gungans were stupid, and of course ** was especially embarrassing.

but, pod race and robot army, droids and lightsaber duels, that puts episode I over the top for me. it's like with the original star wars, the landspeeder scenes i always loved, and the bit where luke goes and looks at the two suns setting, and the jawa trawler with all the robots, and every scene with obi wan.. it's the stuff that was in the movies that i liked so much, not so much the story or the dialogue (though alec guiness' obi wan still holds up for me).


The thing that really set the original movies apart to begin with, though, was that they were big, bombastic high concept films - they were very deeply informed by operatic sensibilities and featured wit and pathos in its at times overly-typified characters (the starry-eyed, ingenuous male lead who is forced by war and bereavement to mature into a hero; the damsel-in-distress who is shown to have both wit and a deep inner strength; the smooth-talking capitano who struggles between bravado and cowardice, selfishness and chivalry; the tortured, menacing villain who draws the fascination and sympathy of the viewer even as he does heinous things). What bugged me most about the prequels was that Lucas completely cut out all of the operatic elements which characterised the original movies, and thought he could keep the franchise rolling on special effects alone.

Were the special effects great in the prequels? Naturally - though looking at them now, everything seems far too clean and shiny, far too 'CGI' (even though that was the big thing then). But, cliche as it sounds, special effects and action scenes alone, no matter how well-choreographed and shiny they are, don't make for great movies.

(Also, the blunt-instrument political allegory particularly in Episodes II and III, well-intentioned though it may have been, didn't help matters any.)

agga wrote:as for the sith-jedi stuff, i've basically accepted it as an amoral power struggle. the sith are bad, the jedi are good - but they're all dead. luke isn't a jedi, he's a superman. who cares whether or not darth vader kills the emperor in episode VI? he's still a bastard. luke's either a moron for putting so much effort into "redeeming" vader - or he's in on the power struggle, and he knows the only way to get to the emperor is by flipping his psychotic father over again (and he knows it's possible since vader expressed an interest already in overthrowing the emperor and ruling the empire himself, with luke). ROTJ and the other luke skywalker stuff really works if you think of him as being a machiavellian, charismatic superman out for power and revenge. it least, in my mind it works that way.


Hm. I think you may be conflating Machiavelli a bit too much with Nietzsche (a true Machiavellian would not be interested in revenge unless that revenge served some greater realistic advantage and could be made an acceptable course of action to the body politic, whereas for a Nietzschean overman revenge would be an immediate, joyous and healthy projection of will), and I'm not entirely convinced Luke's motivations are politically 'realistic' enough to make his character truly Machiavellian in the sense you mean it (that is, I suppose I tend to lean more toward the Luke-as-moron model) - but it does certainly make for a worthwhile and thought-provoking hermeneutic on Return of the Jedi.
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