Official STAR WARS Thread

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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:27 pm

Elitemsh wrote:What kind of faults may i ask? He was one of the best jedi of his time am i right? Overall he seems very well balanced in all areas. He could fight on the front lines and he possessed intelligence and wisdom. In his prime i see Yoda as the only jedi who was superior overall. He was also given a great burden in having to train and mentor Anakin. I think he did very well under the circumstances.


He allowed Anakin too much leeway. He lied to Luke, or distorted the truth. This is mention numerous times in the book. I mean, I completely agree Kenobi is a model Jedi is most respects. I'm sure just saying the guy often screwed up, both with Anakin and himself (concerning his relationship with the woman). He clung too stringently to the Code, unlike his master. Furthermore, and ironically since it was un-jedi to do, his relationship with Anakin blinded him to the truth and danger of what Anakin had become.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:05 pm

I dont see what's wrong with Yoda, probably the oldest and most powerful jedi..
Belth Allusis I admire though, not in the clone wats period, but admirable nonetheless.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:20 pm

mrwongshappymushu wrote:I dont see what's wrong with Yoda, probably the oldest and most powerful jedi..


I haven't read Dark Rendezvous, which I hear is about his own personal struggles with the dark side (someone please correct me if I am wrong). But I think alot of people feel that Yoda failed at foreseeing the coming threat during the Clone Wars, was slow to react to it, and allowed the Jedi Order to become complacent (and beurocratic) and too subject to the depredations of the corrupting Republic. Yoda was wise, old, and powerful. I respect him for that. I also respect he just may have not been up to the task (which was monumental). But, he was in charge, the blame by default falls on him.

Jedi Master Mace Windu was constantly wanting to be more active, Yoda was typically the voice of moderation and patience (which was may have been the wrong move for the Order, as Sidious counted on this trait). Finally, Yoda was also not powerful enough to destroy Sidious.


All that said, I love Yoda.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:08 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:He allowed Anakin too much leeway. He lied to Luke, or distorted the truth. This is mention numerous times in the book. I mean, I completely agree Kenobi is a model Jedi is most respects. I'm sure just saying the guy often screwed up, both with Anakin and himself (concerning his relationship with the woman). He clung too stringently to the Code, unlike his master. Furthermore, and ironically since it was un-jedi to do, his relationship with Anakin blinded him to the truth and danger of what Anakin had become.


You think he should have been stricter with Anakin? Or perhaps you mean he should have kept a closer eye on him? What exactly could he have done?

I don’t know about what is said in the books. I haven’t read them so I can only go by what I’ve seen in the movies. The books aren’t written by Lucas though so should they even be considered canon? From my perspective, lying to Luke was understandable considering the fact that Luke was hardly mature enough to handle the truth at that time. I don’t see how the lie was a mistake.

I agree that Obi Wan was usually too by the book and this was his main weakness. He was a better fighter than his master but Qui Gonn always followed the will of the force regardless of the jedi code. I suppose it makes sense why he was able to discover that secret. He had the courage to disobey the order when he felt the force desired him to.

Shikanosuke wrote:I haven't read Dark Rendezvous, which I hear is about his own personal struggles with the dark side (someone please correct me if I am wrong). But I think alot of people feel that Yoda failed at foreseeing the coming threat during the Clone Wars, was slow to react to it, and allowed the Jedi Order to become complacent (and beurocratic) and too subject to the depredations of the corrupting Republic. Yoda was wise, old, and powerful. I respect him for that. I also respect he just may have not been up to the task (which was monumental). But, he was in charge, the blame by default falls on him.

Jedi Master Mace Windu was constantly wanting to be more active, Yoda was typically the voice of moderation and patience (which was may have been the wrong move for the Order, as Sidious counted on this trait). Finally, Yoda was also not powerful enough to destroy Sidious.


I agree with everything except that your view that Yoda was not powerful enough to destroy Sidious. I think the location of the battle somewhat saved Sidious as it for Obi Wan against Anakin. The outtakes from episode 3 showed that Yoda managed to disarm Sidious during the battle. I would therefore wager that Yoda was a better swordsman, especially considering his vaster experience. Sidious managed to keep him away by launching those pods at him. In another location however those tactics wouldn’t be feasible. At a different battle site I think that Yoda could have defeated Sidious. Or at the least I think I can say that he might have been powerful enough to beat Sidious.

Another theory is that perhaps Yoda and Sidious have reached the absolute peak of power in the light and dark side respectively such that they just balance each other out in any battle they fight. One cannot beat the other. In that case Anakin could have beaten Sidious due to the balance being disturbed.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:39 pm

Elitemsh wrote:
You think he should have been stricter with Anakin? Or perhaps you mean he should have kept a closer eye on him? What exactly could he have done?


Pretty much anything. Anakin had little structure. He was allowed more leeway than most students, he was advanced quickly, was given more assignments than kids his age were getting, and balked at the Code constantly with little reprimand.

I don’t know about what is said in the books. I haven’t read them so I can only go by what I’ve seen in the movies. The books aren’t written by Lucas though so should they even be considered canon?


They are all licensed by LucasArts, with continuity experts attached, everything in them is canon.


From my perspective, lying to Luke was understandable considering the fact that Luke was hardly mature enough to handle the truth at that time. I don’t see how the lie was a mistake.


Its hard to establish credibility about the lies of the dark-side when you yourself are no pillar of truth. This also wasn't the only thing Kenobi skewed either IIRC.

I agree that Obi Wan was usually too by the book and this was his main weakness. He was a better fighter than his master but Qui Gonn always followed the will of the force regardless of the jedi code. I suppose it makes sense why he was able to discover that secret. He had the courage to disobey the order when he felt the force desired him to.


Kenobi mostly d efied the order because of Anakin, not his dedication to the Force. It was his master who did the latter. This was one of Kenobi's faults.


I agree with everything except that your view that Yoda was not powerful enough to destroy Sidious. I think the location of the battle somewhat saved Sidious as it for Obi Wan against Anakin. The outtakes from episode 3 showed that Yoda managed to disarm Sidious during the battle. I would therefore wager that Yoda was a better swordsman, especially considering his vaster experience. Sidious managed to keep him away by launching those pods at him. In another location however those tactics wouldn’t be feasible. At a different battle site I think that Yoda could have defeated Sidious. Or at the least I think I can say that he might have been powerful enough to beat Sidious.


I think thats a bit of a cop-out. If only for the fact that Yoda openly admits he failed. I actually agree with you that it might have been possible that Yoda was powerful enough, but he failed and he admitted he wasn't up to the challenge. I think he was wise to bow out, as well (as he was worth more alive). And when I say 'not powerful enough' I don't mean he was vastly outmatched, either. He held his own, and almost won at certain moments, and of course the battle being where it did tilted things against him. But I have no basis to assume it would have gone differently elsewhere.

Also, you can't apply the same thing to the Kenobi vs. Anakin fight. That fight wasn't lost because of terrain, it was lost because of Anakin's anger and overconfidence. Anakin was to lose that fight irregardless.


Another theory is that perhaps Yoda and Sidious have reached the absolute peak of power in the light and dark side respectively such that they just balance each other out in any battle they fight. One cannot beat the other. In that case Anakin could have beaten Sidious due to the balance being disturbed.


I've never heard that theory, and I don't think Sidious had reached his power. And I think Yoda was already past his prime.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Human5 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:09 pm

to me, it think that was Anakin's fault. not obi wan's. You could also blame Qui Gon Jinn for not sensing the danger when he took Anakin from tatooinne.
Shikanosuke wrote:
Elitemsh wrote:What kind of faults may i ask? He was one of the best jedi of his time am i right? Overall he seems very well balanced in all areas. He could fight on the front lines and he possessed intelligence and wisdom. In his prime i see Yoda as the only jedi who was superior overall. He was also given a great burden in having to train and mentor Anakin. I think he did very well under the circumstances.


He allowed Anakin too much leeway. He lied to Luke, or distorted the truth. This is mention numerous times in the book. I mean, I completely agree Kenobi is a model Jedi is most respects. I'm sure just saying the guy often screwed up, both with Anakin and himself (concerning his relationship with the woman). He clung too stringently to the Code, unlike his master. Furthermore, and ironically since it was un-jedi to do, his relationship with Anakin blinded him to the truth and danger of what Anakin had become.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:34 pm

Human5 wrote:to me, it think that was Anakin's fault. not obi wan's. You could also blame Qui Gon Jinn for not sensing the danger when he took Anakin from tatooinne.


What was Anakin's fault? How he was trained? No.

As for Qui Gon, I don't think anyone could sense his destiny that far in advance. The most people could sense in him at the time was power and anger. Both of those can be curtailed with proper training and instruction, which brings us back to Kenobi.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:19 pm

I really hate unnecessary retconning. Sure, I agree with it when it is necessary. Word is from GL that the new Clone Wars season will be nullifying some of Darth Maul's backstory, and introducing his brother (because you know they want to milk Maul's image for all its worth). Sigh. I'm not a happy Star Wars fan today.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Human5 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:22 am

kenobi was away at war fighting grevious. it couldn't habe been kenobi's fault, becaue he wasn't there. anakin made his own choice to strike ate mace windu, and he allowed the sith to taint him to the dark side. when obi wan finally came back after surviving order 66, he tried to get anakin back to the light, but anakin refused, so it should be all anakin's faults. as for Qui GOn, Mace WIndu, and Yoda, and even kenobi warned Qui Gon about Anakin, because they sensed grave danger. Qui Gon refused to listen to them.
Shikanosuke wrote:
Human5 wrote:to me, it think that was Anakin's fault. not obi wan's. You could also blame Qui Gon Jinn for not sensing the danger when he took Anakin from tatooinne.


What was Anakin's fault? How he was trained? No.

As for Qui Gon, I don't think anyone could sense his destiny that far in advance. The most people could sense in him at the time was power and anger. Both of those can be curtailed with proper training and instruction, which brings us back to Kenobi.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:28 am

Human5 wrote:kenobi was away at war fighting grevious. it couldn't habe been kenobi's fault, becaue he wasn't there.


Anakin's path toward the dark side started long before Kenobi left to fight Grevious (in the movies). And Anakin was "out" at war with Kenobi most of the war.



anakin made his own choice to strike ate mace windu, and he allowed the sith to taint him to the dark side.



That was indeed Anakin's choice, but he was twisted long before that.


when obi wan finally came back after surviving order 66, he tried to get anakin back to the light, but anakin refused, so it should be all anakin's faults.


No. People don't fall to the dark side in one moment. It is a path that is walked, a process. Anakin was poorly trained, and since you seem more acquainted with the movies, was running amock...marrying Padme in defiance of the order and slaughtering Tusken Raiders and giving into his anger. Nor was this his only aggression (more are in the EU).


as for Qui GOn, Mace WIndu, and Yoda, and even kenobi warned Qui Gon about Anakin, because they sensed grave danger. Qui Gon refused to listen to them.


So how doesn't this imply blame on Kenobi? If everyone tells you this kid is dangerous, and you train him anyway..it means you accept responsibility when he screws up.
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