Official STAR WARS Thread

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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:38 am

S.Teague wrote:Anyone ever read 'Shatterpoint'? That's one of my favorite all time books, not just Star Wars book, but any book. I love the way it presents war with all its hatred and bloodshed. I read it about two years after the first time I read it and noticed something I didn't even notice the first time.
Most sci-fi hides any talk of racism behind human vs alien. But I began to notice that all of one side of the war on this planet is white, the other side is black. It never really just says it, but it is hidden in there very well. It never uses the "N" word or anything like that, so I missed it the first time through. It's very suddle. I guess the book would have been a harder sell as a "Star Wars" book if it was too obvious that it was dealing with racism.

But I like the realistic and down to earth approach in that book. It really is the least 'comic book-ish' star wars book I have ever read. It might not be for kids really.


I have indeed. A good book. The fate of Depa Billaba saddened me, especially since they never disclose her final condition (though she is presumably murdered). Star Wars is fairly honest about its racism, though. More so in the EU, but still. Darth Sidious was notorious for hating non-humans.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:06 am

Shikanosuke wrote:As for the some of the references to how powerful Jedi and Sith were during the time: I'll agree the Jedi had become more complacent post-Old Republic but you also ignore the fact that Anakin came to power during the Clone Wars. The Jedi Order in the Clone Wars, unlike Revan's Jedi Order, didn't shirk the task of battle as did the Old Jedi Order. Sure, Revan marched off to war..but the Jedi Order didn't. The Clone Wars Jedi might indeed have suffered from some complacency as a whole, but its individual talent wasn't to be trifled with. Yoda, Windu, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Plo-Koon, Shaak-Ti and many more were all formidable Jedi that I'd place up there against any of the Old Jedi Order candidates, even if they suffered some from years of peace. The Clone Wars-era Jedi might have suffered as a political entity from complacency, but their military might didn't. They became generals, they wore armor, they commanded troops, they fought bloodily and they died.


Um... depending on what you look for in a Sith, if anything this seems to be an endorsement of Revan. No, Revan was not (from what we can tell) a sterling duellist, and no he didn't have a long string of Force-adept notches on his belts. But if anything, the unready military state of the Old Jedi Order simply makes Revan's strategic triumphs the greater - he was able to crush the Mandalorians with only a demoralised, broken fleet and a handful of territorial-revanchist Jedi aiding him, and he was able from the other side to pinpoint the heart of the Sith Empire's power in the Star Forge, destroy it, cause Bastila to defect and kill Malak (with the aid of only a cargo ship and a few small Jedi craft).

A more military-ready Jedi Order under Yoda means that Anakin would have had greater experience and prestige as a commander on the front lines (as you note, he has an impressive string of notches on his belt), but we don't see his strategic abilities showcased in the same way.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:26 am

WeiWenDi wrote:Um... depending on what you look for in a Sith, if anything this seems to be an endorsement of Revan. No, Revan was not (from what we can tell) a sterling duellist, and no he didn't have a long string of Force-adept notches on his belts. But if anything, the unready military state of the Old Jedi Order simply makes Revan's strategic triumphs the greater - he was able to crush the Mandalorians with only a demoralised, broken fleet and a handful of territorial-revanchist Jedi aiding him, and he was able from the other side to pinpoint the heart of the Sith Empire's power in the Star Forge, destroy it, cause Bastila to defect and kill Malak (with the aid of only a cargo ship and a few small Jedi craft).


True. I'm trying to actually downplay Revan's force-strength or his accomplishments. Just don't think he'd prevail in a fantasy match-up. I'd also note that Revan's victories came with a high cost to him.

A more military-ready Jedi Order under Yoda means that Anakin would have had greater experience and prestige as a commander on the front lines (as you note, he has an impressive string of notches on his belt), but we don't see his strategic abilities showcased in the same way.


Perhaps not in the same way as Revan, but Anakin did come to age during the Clone Wars. He did become a general, and he did lead troops and accomplish many impressive feats (both as a Jedi and a star-pilot).
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:19 am

Shikanosuke wrote:True. I'm trying to actually downplay Revan's force-strength or his accomplishments. Just don't think he'd prevail in a fantasy match-up. I'd also note that Revan's victories came with a high cost to him.


Problem with fantasy match-ups is that they tend to use the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny as their archetype (as in, one-on-one free-for-all combat). In such a case Vader would almost certainly win. But if you gave Vader and Revan each a fleet of 40 cruisers and had them duke it out in space, I believe Revan would completely clean Vader's chronometres.

Shikanosuke wrote:
A more military-ready Jedi Order under Yoda means that Anakin would have had greater experience and prestige as a commander on the front lines (as you note, he has an impressive string of notches on his belt), but we don't see his strategic abilities showcased in the same way.


Perhaps not in the same way as Revan, but Anakin did come to age during the Clone Wars. He did become a general, and he did lead troops and accomplish many impressive feats (both as a Jedi and a star-pilot).


True, but I think it would be very difficult to argue that Anakin / Vader was as strategically talented as Revan had been. The loss of the first Death Star in SW/ANH was due to Tarkin's foolhardiness rather than Vader's, but since Vader still insisted on being a starfighter during that battle rather than station commander, he certainly didn't help matters any. I think you'd be hard-pressed to defend his strategies in pursuit of his son before and during ESB, since he needlessly expended a number of ships in pursuit of the Millenium Falcon and continued attempting a number of ineffective tactics (including the deployment of mercenaries) before eventually employing political pressure on Calrissian to capture Solo and Organa (though his heavy-handedness caused even that tactic to backfire completely). Also, Vader completely underestimated the Rebel forces during their assault on the DS2; even though he defected toward the end of that battle, it was nevertheless Vader's lack of foresight and caution in planning the station's defenses (not to mention his unresolved feelings regarding his son) which caused its destruction.

Anakin's strengths, both as a Jedi and as a Sith, were certainly his fearlessness and his tendency for swift, instinctive action. These made him an exceptional starfighter, duellist and field commander; I agree completely that in one-on-one combat, it is highly unlikely that Revan would triumph over Vader. But as a general and fleet commander, Vader's lack of caution and tendency to make decisions on instinct rather than on rational assessment was an Achilles' heel rather than a strength. Revan, on the other hand, could better temper bravery with discretion, and instinct with patience.

I'd pit both Revan and Vader (Revan as general, Vader as squad commander / field commander) against any other two Sith, though - that might be interesting.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:12 am

WeiWenDi wrote:Problem with fantasy match-ups is that they tend to use the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny as their archetype (as in, one-on-one free-for-all combat). In such a case Vader would almost certainly win. But if you gave Vader and Revan each a fleet of 40 cruisers and had them duke it out in space, I believe Revan would completely clean Vader's chronometres.


Very true. Combat-wise I'd go with Vader. As you say, tactician-wise I'd go with Revan. Heck, Thrawn would be the ultimate candidate for this one!


True, but I think it would be very difficult to argue that Anakin / Vader was as strategically talented as Revan had been. The loss of the first Death Star in SW/ANH was due to Tarkin's foolhardiness rather than Vader's, but since Vader still insisted on being a starfighter during that battle rather than station commander, he certainly didn't help matters any. I think you'd be hard-pressed to defend his strategies in pursuit of his son before and during ESB, since he needlessly expended a number of ships in pursuit of the Millenium Falcon and continued attempting a number of ineffective tactics (including the deployment of mercenaries) before eventually employing political pressure on Calrissian to capture Solo and Organa (though his heavy-handedness caused even that tactic to backfire completely). Also, Vader completely underestimated the Rebel forces during their assault on the DS2; even though he defected toward the end of that battle, it was nevertheless Vader's lack of foresight and caution in planning the station's defenses (not to mention his unresolved feelings regarding his son) which caused its destruction.

Anakin's strengths, both as a Jedi and as a Sith, were certainly his fearlessness and his tendency for swift, instinctive action. These made him an exceptional starfighter, duellist and field commander; I agree completely that in one-on-one combat, it is highly unlikely that Revan would triumph over Vader. But as a general and fleet commander, Vader's lack of caution and tendency to make decisions on instinct rather than on rational assessment was an Achilles' heel rather than a strength. Revan, on the other hand, could better temper bravery with discretion, and instinct with patience.


Fair enough, we're in agreement in this. Anakin's impulsiveness was something he surely did not outgrow as Vader. If he got any patience at all, it was probably only taught to him by the limitations of his mechanical-body.

I guess we should be more specific in quantifying vs. match-ups :D.

I'd pit both Revan and Vader (Revan as general, Vader as squad commander / field commander) against any other two Sith, though - that might be interesting.


I'm curious to know how brilliant, or not, a strategist Palpatine was. Don't get me wrong, politically he is ingenious but I am curious how smart militarily he was. Same goes for Bane, I wonder what kind of leader he would have made. He was a competent field commander, but I don't know how he'd lead an Empire.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:41 am

Shikanosuke wrote:Very true. Combat-wise I'd go with Vader. As you say, tactician-wise I'd go with Revan. Heck, Thrawn would be the ultimate candidate for this one!


Sure! Thrawn wasn't a Jedi, but a Revan / Thrawn matchup with the 40-cruisers method would be very interesting to see.

Shikanosuke wrote:Fair enough, we're in agreement in this. Anakin's impulsiveness was something he surely did not outgrow as Vader. If he got any patience at all, it was probably only taught to him by the limitations of his mechanical-body.


That's probably true. Vader did seem to acquire a bit more cunning after his fall to the Dark Side, though how much of that was Sidious' influence at work I guess we can't know.

Shikanosuke wrote:I'm curious to know how brilliant, or not, a strategist Palpatine was. Don't get me wrong, politically he is ingenious but I am curious how smart militarily he was. Same goes for Bane, I wonder what kind of leader he would have made. He was a competent field commander, but I don't know how he'd lead an Empire.


We only get hints in the movies - perhaps the EU goes into this aspect in greater detail. We see that Sidious is certainly a master of strategic misdirection (as well as being completely unscrupulous about pitting his subordinates against each other to his own benefit). His knowledge of psychology and his ability to predict and direct the political climate might also have served him well in a war room, though you're right - we don't see direct evidence of this.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Human5 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:57 pm

may the force be with you. :lol:
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:05 am

My favourite Star Wars book got slated by reviews I read afterwards... Allegiance by Timothy Zahn.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shritzu » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:40 pm

If anyone is interested...there is a starwars mmosim of sorts at http://www.swcombine.com. They have strict rules and are as close to accurate as one can get to the starwars universe...The game itself is run entirely around players(making it a sim of sorts) and is based in the post galactic civil war era...I am active and encourage people as interesting as yourselfs to try of course...With that said i say Bleh...and the old movies are indeed ruined by the newones....and about darth maul-he was a zabrak...the warpaint and horns are native to his race....(ugly...bah)And i gotta give sith of the year award to darth plagiuse for serving as palpitine and anakin's role model during thier fall...(assuming he existed)
Now that i have stated multiple opinions and advertised accordingly.....
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:44 am

Shritzu wrote:And i gotta give sith of the year award to darth plagiuse for serving as palpitine and anakin's role model during thier fall...(assuming he existed)
Now that i have stated multiple opinions and advertised accordingly.....


Darth Plagueis? Oh I'm fairly certain he existed. And if you are interested, a novel based on him and Palpatine's rise is slated to come out in 2010 (recently confirmed, a big joy to those who were upset when the original was shelved).
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