Official STAR WARS Thread

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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:49 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:
The evidence against this interpretation would have to be Luke's discussion with the ghost of Obi-Wan after the death of Yoda. I think it is clear that defeating Sidious was among his goals (as part of his final test to become a Jedi), though it ought to be said that in that very same conversation he saw turning Vader back and defeating Sidious as one and the same goal (Obi-Wan disagreeing completely, thinking Luke would have to kill Vader, who has become 'more machine... than man').


But, as you say just below, Luke is highly single-minded and obsessed with notions of nobility and 'doing whats right'. It is possible that in ROTJ he had incorporated a slightly more inclusive goal of defeating Vader and the Emporer but I think his struggle with his father would have remained with the same dynamic even if the Emporer had not been present at the time of his final struggle with Vader. And I think we should be careful how we frame the debate with the term 'defeating Sidious'. Defeating Sidious is essentially identical with 'defeating the Empire', which all Rebellion soldiers wanted to do. Sure, Luke wanted that. But as you mentioned earlier, Luke's conflict with the Emporer wasn't a political as that (though I'm sure it wasn't entirely unconnected). Defeating Sidious to Luke wasn't merely beating him, it was resisting the dark-side conversion which Sidious wanted so badly.

EDIT: Furthermore, I think we've all ignored this entire time that Anakin's killing of the Emperor wasn't just a personal victory for father and son, for Rebellion and Empire. It was the force's will, the fulfilling of a prophecy.


The reason why I said any Luke-as-overman argument would have to depend on an interpretation which attributes noblesse oblige to his actions is pretty much precisely the single-minded drive and noble ethic that he displays so often in the films. I won't lie - it's very difficult for me to think of Luke as being anything approaching a Machiavellian realist when he's throwing his lightsabre away after besting Vader in single combat.


I agree with this. Luke, by following his 'always do right no matter the consequences', is often creating more problems than he is solving (though they always work out for him in the end..since he is Skywalker ya know?). But the point is he is often all-together dismissive of some of the over-arching problems he is facing and entirely focused on his more idealistic objective. I'd also say Luke does begin to grow more cognizant of this, though, after ROTJ.


But Kreia's interpretation of Revan's actions would indicate that he always had the destruction of the True Sith as his end goal, and that his defection from and war against the Republic was an attempt to gain a broad base of support from which to do so (noting that his grand strategy depended on leaving Republic infrastructure intact and keeping war casualties to a minimum; a strategy which was completely botched by Malak). Again, very tricky trying to ascertain whether Revan was light side or dark side - or either; I actually tend to think Revan was the true Machiavellian realist of the Sith Lords*.


My question here would be, is it wise to trust anything Kreia says?


Well, that's only because:

a.) Revan was squared off against a highly-skilled Battle Meditator (Shan Bastila) to whom he was attracted, and who was using her powers to divide his attention from Malak.
b.) Malak was on the Leviathan at the time and fired on Revan's Interdictor.

In my analysis, Malak got lucky - it's just that Revan got luckier. (If you want to use Obi-Wan's theology, however, Revan was under the providence of the Force.)


True, my point was merely a tactician wouldn't have made such a ambush possible. Assuming Revan had turned Sith..he would've known to never trust his apprentice like so.



mrbeate wrote:Darth Revan/Revan vs Darth Vader/Anakin

I think Revan of course in my opinion :D .


I find it hard to say. Both characters have somewhat of an ambiguous presence as far as their powers go. Darth Vader was originally to be highly feared. It wasn't until the EU that you started to realize just how limited his machine-body made him. However, even in the EU he is a force to be reckoned with. Anakin, had he not been mangled and controlled his anger, might have been the most powerful force user to ever hold a lightsaber. Revan was supposedly very powerful, but in reality you don't really see much of his power outside of story-telling and the player's actions. All you know is who he defeated (Shan/Malak).

I guess the appropriate paring would be Darth vs. Darth and pre-Darth vs. pre-Darth. In either battle I'd take Vader/Anakin. I just don't think theres enough evidence to show how powerful Revan truly was, but rather he is merely consistently referenced as being powerful. We know Anakin is the Chosen One, created from the force. The idea that he lost to Obi is laughable, and as usual, can be attributed to his own fault and not Obi's prowess. I'd also reference the fact that Vader nearly beat Galen Marek, another force-user fabled to be possibly the most-powerful force-user to ever live.






agga wrote:there you go - even Obi Wan wasn't able to see it. he just thought Vader/Anakin was a hard, evil machine, that couldn't be turned. for some reason, Luke knew otherwise.


Indeed. But that is what makes Luke special. For one, Luke has that oh-so-special connection with the force..something no matter how wise Obi-Wan is he can't match. Secondly, Luke learns Obi-Wan has lied to him, and even if he doesn't actually consider him a sinister liar, he spins the truth to a 'certain point of view' (as Vader and Luke both put it). So he knows Obi-Wan has a personal bias against Vader, it is his biggest failure for which he exiles and berates himself. Obi, on such matters, isn't really to be trusted entirely. He is jaded, while Luke is idealistic.

WeiWenDi wrote:i know i'm stretching things, but i don't think i've actually violated any of the movie material yet. i'm just imagining what's going on in Luke's head during all of this. obi wan and yoda confirm that Vader is his father, and Luke is somehow able to sense the presence of his father as such, and yet Luke never shows any sign of considering Vader's offer: "rule the empire as father and son". so ok, maybe he's not after power - but, i don't see why i shouldn't believe that Luke is thinking strategically when he gets the idea of turning his father back. Vader's a mass murderer and a notorious traitor, who couldn't expect better than trial and execution if he survived the final battle, and even in death deserves scorn, etc., despite his final act. i figure Luke's not dumb - in fact, in my mind Luke is a charismatic genius, portrayed as a scrappy underdog - so he must perceive this.


But see, if I played into your model, I'd actually take the Luke is dumb model. Not dumb dumb, but naive and idealistic. As you say, in the original trilogy is just a scrappy do-gooder running around the galaxy trying to do what his intuition tells him he is right. He shows no signs of maturity until ROTJ, and even it isn't much. I just don't see what overwhelming evidence there is to say Luke is thinking too far-ahead of 'I believe my father is good, he can be turned'. I believe this especially to be so in light of how stringently he clings to the idea that the lightside is the good in the universe. He doesn't consider Vader's offer, or the Emperor's (until he was in close proximity). But he shows no genius-ness at all, he just shows intuitiveness and good intentions. For a genius he spends most of his time on the brink of getting himself and his friends all killed.

all that said, as i got older and started to see things this way (yeah, i'm making it all up because i like it better this way), it really started to bother me that you see anakin at peace with yoda and obi wan there at the end of ROTJ. i just don't think he deserves it, at all - unless, like you guys are saying, the Jedi aren't good at all, and it's all just a power game to them, which Anakin now gets credit for "winning". bah.


Now in this we are in somewhat more of an agreement. I was rather surprised to see the deceased and now restored Anakin beside Yoda and Obi. For one, that was a latter addition by Lucas. Secondly, as you say he completely doesn't deserve it. Third it doesn't make sense because Luke is still haunted by visions of his Vader-father long after he knows his father turned lightside. I think the addition of Anakin was for the movie-fans. I think it was 'ok now heres the conclusion, feel happy and go-home its all over'.

As for what I said about the Jedi not being good, its a matter for interpretation and perspective. First, no matter if you take the most idealistic view of the Jedi or not..you just have to be realistic and note that some Jedi just aren't good. Jorus C'baoth comes to mind. Dooku is another. But the point is that Jedi aren't omniscient, and it is only the non-force users who place them on such a pedestal. That is the one of the key criticisms of the Jedi order.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:13 pm

agga wrote:
WeiWenDi wrote:The reason why I said any Luke-as-overman argument would have to depend on an interpretation which attributes noblesse oblige to his actions is pretty much precisely the single-minded drive and noble ethic that he displays so often in the films. I won't lie - it's very difficult for me to think of Luke as being anything approaching a Machiavellian realist when he's throwing his lightsabre away after besting Vader in single combat.


i know i'm stretching things, but i don't think i've actually violated any of the movie material yet. i'm just imagining what's going on in Luke's head during all of this. obi wan and yoda confirm that Vader is his father, and Luke is somehow able to sense the presence of his father as such, and yet Luke never shows any sign of considering Vader's offer: "rule the empire as father and son". so ok, maybe he's not after power - but, i don't see why i shouldn't believe that Luke is thinking strategically when he gets the idea of turning his father back. Vader's a mass murderer and a notorious traitor, who couldn't expect better than trial and execution if he survived the final battle, and even in death deserves scorn, etc., despite his final act. i figure Luke's not dumb - in fact, in my mind Luke is a charismatic genius, portrayed as a scrappy underdog - so he must perceive this.

all that said, as i got older and started to see things this way (yeah, i'm making it all up because i like it better this way), it really started to bother me that you see anakin at peace with yoda and obi wan there at the end of ROTJ. i just don't think he deserves it, at all - unless, like you guys are saying, the Jedi aren't good at all, and it's all just a power game to them, which Anakin now gets credit for "winning". bah.


I don't think it's a stretch to think of Luke as having gained some measure of subtlety and insight through his experiences particularly in ESB, which is after all more of a loss-of-innocence story than anything else. But it seems more than just a bit out-of-character for Luke to see his father as an instrument of his revenge against Sidious, when he protested to Obi-Wan before that he could not kill him. Rather, perhaps it's the other way around: by defeating Sidious, Luke is attempting to wrest from Sidious both his father and his noble birthright as a Jedi.

But yeah, I agree that Anakin's redemption-on-the-cheap bugs me: Vader did so many more evil things than simply helping Sidious achieve power, which really just get glossed over.

Shikanosuke wrote:My question here would be, is it wise to trust anything Kreia says?


:lol: Probably not. But here, she did have a point. Revan did make sure to leave many Republic worlds untouched, whereas Malak simply attacked at whim - even if Kreia was lying through her teeth in order to confuzzle the Exile, I think her analysis might hold water.

Shikanosuke wrote:True, my point was merely a tactician wouldn't have made such a ambush possible. Assuming Revan had turned Sith..he would've known to never trust his apprentice like so.


The problem with this interpretation is that Malak was not the only factor - Revan himself was also. I think that it is entirely possible that whatever feelings Revan and Bastila had between them impacted his judgment and clouded his vision with regard to Malak - such things have been known to happen even with the greatest of tacticians.

Shikanosuke wrote:I guess the appropriate paring would be Darth vs. Darth and pre-Darth vs. pre-Darth. In either battle I'd take Vader/Anakin. I just don't think theres enough evidence to show how powerful Revan truly was, but rather he is merely consistently referenced as being powerful. We know Anakin is the Chosen One, created from the force. The idea that he lost to Obi is laughable, and as usual, can be attributed to his own fault and not Obi's prowess. I'd also reference the fact that Vader nearly beat Galen Marek, another force-user fabled to be possibly the most-powerful force-user to ever live.


Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Considerable as Revan's strategic intellect was, he simply didn't have the Chosen One crap on his side - it's kind of like pitting Neo against anybody in the Matrix universe. A better match, though, might be Anakin / Vader vs Dessel / Bane: on the one hand you have the legendary Chosen One and Bringer of Balance to the Force and all that jazz, and on the other you have the destined Sith'ari and the progenitor of the Sith Order which gave rise to Vader.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:39 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:
:lol: Probably not. But here, she did have a point. Revan did make sure to leave many Republic worlds untouched, whereas Malak simply attacked at whim - even if Kreia was lying through her teeth in order to confuzzle the Exile, I think her analysis might hold water.


Fair enough. Malak was always, even in the Republic, running around without thinking.


The problem with this interpretation is that Malak was not the only factor - Revan himself was also. I think that it is entirely possible that whatever feelings Revan and Bastila had between them impacted his judgment and clouded his vision with regard to Malak - such things have been known to happen even with the greatest of tacticians.


I can agree with that. I just think that is why Revan is not so much a strong Sith, but a strong Jedi. As a Sith he ignores his raving ambitious and always second-best apprentice and lets his love interest confuse his tactician mind. True, he is just human.


Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Considerable as Revan's strategic intellect was, he simply didn't have the Chosen One crap on his side - it's kind of like pitting Neo against anybody in the Matrix universe. A better match, though, might be Anakin / Vader vs Dessel / Bane: on the one hand you have the legendary Chosen One and Bringer of Balance to the Force and all that jazz, and on the other you have the destined Sith'ari and the progenitor of the Sith Order which gave rise to Vader.


I completely agree that that is a better match up. I'd still end up with Anakin/Vader though. Bane wasn't really a confirmed Sith'ari, though we really have no reason to think he wasn't either. But even if he is, the Sith'ari is merely supposed to make the Sith stronger. The Chosen One is supposed to bring balance to the force. Now, we can discuss exactly what that term means, but one might suggest that means destroying the very thing that the Sith'ari created (which, in essence, Vader did by destroying the Rule of Two).

EDIT: Then again, the Sith'ari was supposed to be the perfect being, or the ultimate Sith. So he might be powerful indeed. I guess a good topic is deserves the title of Sith'ari?

As for Bane, we'd have to discuss at what point in his life we want to debate his prowess. Personally, I think he was strongest as a warrior in Path of Destruction facing off against Kas'im. A fight between that Bane and Anakin would be phenomenal, or even that Bane vs. Vader. In the second book, I don't think we should be allowed to compare. Bane was invincible in his suit of armor. It pissed me off. In the second book's finale he was outmatched and would have died. His armor made that book possible. The third book I think Bane begins to weaken as a warrior and show more traits on the level of Sidious. I think, as many other readers did, that the final fight of the book (which I won't describe in case its still considered a spoiler?) was a joke. It isn't that I cared who was the victor per se, but rather how it happened. I feel that Bane would have been beaten by either Vader or Anakin.

(P.S. it might be an interesting topic, if it hasn't been beaten to death elsewhere, about what exactly 'restoring balance to the force' means?)

Another fantasy match up I'd like to see is either Skywalker vs. Galen Marek.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby S.Teague » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:32 pm

I have a theory that I doubt anyone will agree with. But when they say that Anakin is the "choosen one" and that he will bring palance to the force, yet he doesn't in the end. He sends things into chaos. Perhaps what they were seing is the potential of his offspring, Luke, who does bring things back into balance. Luke is really the choosen one, they just mis read it as being Anakin.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:49 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:I can agree with that. I just think that is why Revan is not so much a strong Sith, but a strong Jedi. As a Sith he ignores his raving ambitious and always second-best apprentice and lets his love interest confuse his tactician mind. True, he is just human.


True enough, but then again, so was Vader. Had it not been for his relationship with Amidala, Vader might have avoided his injury and been twice the Sith he was - or he might never have been manipulated by Sidious into the Dark Side in the first place. To my mind, Revan's flaws as a Sith are fairly qualified - after all, in the end, it was Malak who was killed by his master and Revan who went on to carry out his agenda against the True Sith on his own.

Shikanosuke wrote:As for Bane, we'd have to discuss at what point in his life we want to debate his prowess. Personally, I think he was strongest as a warrior in Path of Destruction facing off against Kas'im. A fight between that Bane and Anakin would be phenomenal, or even that Bane vs. Vader. In the second book, I don't think we should be allowed to compare. Bane was invincible in his suit of armor. It pissed me off. In the second book's finale he was outmatched and would have died. His armor made that book possible. The third book I think Bane begins to weaken as a warrior and show more traits on the level of Sidious. I think, as many other readers did, that the final fight of the book (which I won't describe in case its still considered a spoiler?) was a joke. It isn't that I cared who was the victor per se, but rather how it happened. I feel that Bane would have been beaten by either Vader or Anakin.


Well, what I know of Bane I generally know from the Rule of Two era, so I have to agree with you that early Bane would be preferable. If they cheapened him to that extent, then I really wouldn't be interested in such a match-up.

Shikanosuke wrote:Another fantasy match up I'd like to see is either Skywalker vs. Galen Marek.


I'm afraid I haven't played the Force Unleashed games, so I'm not really sure about Marek. Sounds like it would be fun, though - he's described as the 'anti-Luke Skywalker' on Wookieepedia, after all.

S.Teague wrote:I have a theory that I doubt anyone will agree with. But when they say that Anakin is the "choosen one" and that he will bring palance to the force, yet he doesn't in the end. He sends things into chaos. Perhaps what they were seing is the potential of his offspring, Luke, who does bring things back into balance. Luke is really the choosen one, they just mis read it as being Anakin.


Actually, the only in-universe objection I have to such a theory is that Luke didn't fulfil the prophecy the way Anakin had. (And I wouldn't necessarily see Anakin as a bringer of chaos - one may describe the Empire he helped to bring about and rule in many ways, but I wouldn't think 'chaotic' would be one of those descriptions.) One might interpret Luke's saga and his confrontations with Vader as being part of Anakin Skywalker's process of 'bringing balance' - though again it brings us back to Shik's question of what that phrase really means.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby SunXia » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:55 pm

The only problem that I have with the prequel films is that, after all the fighting that Padmé takes part in and survives, she dies because she's heartbroken!! Pah!! They should have had her survive for a bit and then die but bravely get her children to the safe areas they were brought up in!! Hence, Leia says she remembers her mother's smell, well damn that was one awesome newly born baby!!

I found all movies in the Star Wars an enjoyable experience!!
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby agga » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:43 am

S.Teague wrote:I have a theory that I doubt anyone will agree with. But when they say that Anakin is the "choosen one" and that he will bring palance to the force, yet he doesn't in the end. He sends things into chaos. Perhaps what they were seing is the potential of his offspring, Luke, who does bring things back into balance. Luke is really the choosen one, they just mis read it as being Anakin.


i figured that "in balance" meant 2 jedi and 2 sith: yoda and obi wan, sidious and vader. balance, voila, equal parts light and dark!

of course no one likes that interpretation.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby mrbeate » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:59 am

I think Revan because:

- He Had many masters so, he is more ... diverse i suppose..
- He was in a time where Ancient Sith and Jedi knowledge/skills/abilities were there. By the time of Anakin, many of these things would have been lost over a 4000 year time period.
- In Revan's time the Republic had a well-trained army. The Jedi were trained to wage war and kill as well as the Sith. During Anakins period, they were trained to make peace.
- When the Replubic were at war with the Highly skilled Mandalorians, and losing, Revan stepped up and recruited Jedi to intervene and defeat the Mandalorians.
- He was very charismatic, and had lust for knowledge and new saber techniques which he found during his Sith Lord days.
- Also found the Star Forge, a endless fleet of ships
- Created an Empire, and defeated the Jedi Order numerous times, converting about half of the Jedi into Sith and killing more who were loyal to him, and was able to control them.
- During the height of his power, he was betrayed by Darth Malak who was aboard his main ship while Revan was fighting on a lesser ship.
- After his 'revival' , he became a Jedi again. And was able to use both Light and Dark powers/skills without being sucked into the Dark Side.
- The Jedi order was crumbling and Revan was able to defeat the Mighty Empire he founded and killed Malak.
-
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:49 am

WeiWenDi wrote:
True enough, but then again, so was Vader. Had it not been for his relationship with Amidala, Vader might have avoided his injury and been twice the Sith he was - or he might never have been manipulated by Sidious into the Dark Side in the first place. To my mind, Revan's flaws as a Sith are fairly qualified - after all, in the end, it was Malak who was killed by his master and Revan who went on to carry out his agenda against the True Sith on his own.


Oh I agree about Vader also.


Well, what I know of Bane I generally know from the Rule of Two era, so I have to agree with you that early Bane would be preferable. If they cheapened him to that extent, then I really wouldn't be interested in such a match-up.


In the second book he is encased in an armor which makes him nigh-impossible to kill. He defeats a Jedi battlemaster as well as two other Jedi, all the while taking a vicious beating but surviving due to his armor.


I'm afraid I haven't played the Force Unleashed games, so I'm not really sure about Marek. Sounds like it would be fun, though - he's described as the 'anti-Luke Skywalker' on Wookieepedia, after all.


Ah. Well theres a novel as well (though it isn't stellar since its forcibly written from the story-board of the game). He is conceptualized as how powerful Luke would have been had he embraced the dark side (thus very powerful). Luckily though, he has a change of heart and saves the Rebellion. In the process he beats down Vader and matches and defeats the Emperor's powers. The second game/book are coming out soon to continue his tale.



S.Teague wrote:I have a theory that I doubt anyone will agree with. But when they say that Anakin is the "choosen one" and that he will bring palance to the force, yet he doesn't in the end. He sends things into chaos. Perhaps what they were seing is the potential of his offspring, Luke, who does bring things back into balance. Luke is really the choosen one, they just mis read it as being Anakin.


No. Luke is not the Chosen One. Anakin is. Your theory is that the geo-political scene is identical to the balance of the force, but it isn't. Your theory also seems to be based on the fact that Anakin changes his name, and thus his chance at fulfilling the prophecy ends. However, Anakin doesn't die until he dies as Darth Vader. You have to base your theory off that. As Vader, Anakin kills the last two remaining Sith. That is what we must discuss. See below for more discussion.






Actually, the only in-universe objection I have to such a theory is that Luke didn't fulfil the prophecy the way Anakin had. (And I wouldn't necessarily see Anakin as a bringer of chaos - one may describe the Empire he helped to bring about and rule in many ways, but I wouldn't think 'chaotic' would be one of those descriptions.) One might interpret Luke's saga and his confrontations with Vader as being part of Anakin Skywalker's process of 'bringing balance' - though again it brings us back to Shik's question of what that phrase really means.


The thing about the prophecy is really that we have a canon answer that we can't dispute. George Lucas is on record verbatim confirming that Anakin is the Chosen One and by killing the Emperor he fulfilled the prophecy. As GL is the creator of SW, its the law of the land/word of god. So we really have to take the question from there.

The question of what balance of the force means is a complex one. On the one hand we can look at it numerically as Agga does above. However, that doesn't add up because after Vader kills the Emperor we are left with zero Sith and one Jedi. It isn't numerically balanced. Heck even if we operate on that theory prior to Anakin fulfilling his role, Yoda and Obiwan both die. We start with a 3-2 ratio (Yoda, Obi, Luke v. Vader, Sidious). We end up with 1-2 by the end of the ESB. And by ROTJ you've got 1-0. So you never end up with a 'balance'. Nor do I think that is what is meant.

One theory I heard was pretty straight-forward. 'Balance' means the end of the Sith, period. The Sith are a plague on the force, and both Qui-Gon and George Lucas spend much time describing as the force as 'symbiotic'. The Jedi take from the force but give back by being benevolent. The Sith take and give nothing back, thus restoring balance would be eliminating the parasite.

My favored theory is that balance meant starting as status quo. Anakin had to grow through his own tale. He destroyed both the Jedi and the Sith. He destroyed the Jedi as he fell to the darkside, and restored the balance as he killed the last two remaining Sith as a he returned to the light side. Personally that is my favorite theory. I'll admit its messy, as he has to plunge the galaxy into chaos to accomplish its end. However, I think it is justified. For one, the galaxy was already headed for a mess and was already plunged. On either side he was going to make the difference. I'm not saying this is the right theory, just my favorite.



mrbeate wrote:I think Revan because:

- He Had many masters so, he is more ... diverse i suppose..
- He was in a time where Ancient Sith and Jedi knowledge/skills/abilities were there. By the time of Anakin, many of these things would have been lost over a 4000 year time period.
- In Revan's time the Republic had a well-trained army. The Jedi were trained to wage war and kill as well as the Sith. During Anakins period, they were trained to make peace.
- When the Replubic were at war with the Highly skilled Mandalorians, and losing, Revan stepped up and recruited Jedi to intervene and defeat the Mandalorians.
- He was very charismatic, and had lust for knowledge and new saber techniques which he found during his Sith Lord days.
- Also found the Star Forge, a endless fleet of ships
- Created an Empire, and defeated the Jedi Order numerous times, converting about half of the Jedi into Sith and killing more who were loyal to him, and was able to control them.
- During the height of his power, he was betrayed by Darth Malak who was aboard his main ship while Revan was fighting on a lesser ship.
- After his 'revival' , he became a Jedi again. And was able to use both Light and Dark powers/skills without being sucked into the Dark Side.
- The Jedi order was crumbling and Revan was able to defeat the Mighty Empire he founded and killed Malak.
-


My problem is with this is its all recounted information. Sure, its an impressive list of feats. I don't deny that. But how many tales do you have to tell about Revan and his fighting abilities? None. Anakin's force abilities, feats, and prowess are described in detail through story. We can tell you who he fought, how he fought, and yada yada. As for the some of the references to how powerful Jedi and Sith were during the time: I'll agree the Jedi had become more complacent post-Old Republic but you also ignore the fact that Anakin came to power during the Clone Wars. The Jedi Order in the Clone Wars, unlike Revan's Jedi Order, didn't shirk the task of battle as did the Old Jedi Order. Sure, Revan marched off to war..but the Jedi Order didn't. The Clone Wars Jedi might indeed have suffered from some complacency as a whole, but its individual talent wasn't to be trifled with. Yoda, Windu, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Plo-Koon, Shaak-Ti and many more were all formidable Jedi that I'd place up there against any of the Old Jedi Order candidates, even if they suffered some from years of peace. The Clone Wars-era Jedi might have suffered as a political entity from complacency, but their military might didn't. They became generals, they wore armor, they commanded troops, they fought bloodily and they died. In essence, they became exactly what you describe as the Old Jedi Order during the Jedi Civil War.

EDIT: If we want to just compare a list of duels Anakin and Revan fought, Revan's certainly on the losing side. We know he bests Bastila Shan and Darth Malak. Anakin bests Asajj Ventress, Darth Tyrannus, Cin Drallig, and would have killed Obi-Wan had he been able to control his anger. As Vader he killed a plethora of other Jedi, including a reincarnation of Darth Maul.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby S.Teague » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:27 pm

Anyone ever read 'Shatterpoint'? That's one of my favorite all time books, not just Star Wars book, but any book. I love the way it presents war with all its hatred and bloodshed. I read it about two years after the first time I read it and noticed something I didn't even notice the first time.
Most sci-fi hides any talk of racism behind human vs alien. But I began to notice that all of one side of the war on this planet is white, the other side is black. It never really just says it, but it is hidden in there very well. It never uses the "N" word or anything like that, so I missed it the first time through. It's very suddle. I guess the book would have been a harder sell as a "Star Wars" book if it was too obvious that it was dealing with racism.

But I like the realistic and down to earth approach in that book. It really is the least 'comic book-ish' star wars book I have ever read. It might not be for kids really.
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