Official STAR WARS Thread

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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:52 am

WWD wrote:
Well, we're discussing a work of fiction, naturally, so speculation is mere speculation - but I think your questions are right on the money. I think the Jedi Order should have had to take some responsibility for both the success of the True Sith in manipulating the Mandalorians into war with the Republic, and for the fall of Anakin Skywalker. I actually kind of wonder whether it was intentional on Lucas' part to help us sympathise with Anakin over the Jedi in Episode III... there are moments where you wonder exactly what Yoda's been smoking to have such failures of empathy and basic common sense.


I agree. I think Yoda carries a great amount of guilt about his lack of foresight.

As for the prequels, I thought they were mediocre.
As for Darth Maul, he was indeed wasted potential. He is a character who could have been developed much more, but was thrown away to showcase Obi-Wan's lightsaber skills. His backstory and missions for the Emperor make him one of my favorite Sith. The movies serve as ok gap-bridgers for the casual observer, and The Force Unleashed serves as the official and actual trilogy filler.

EDIT: As far as him being ugly, I don't think he is really anymore repulsive than any Zabrak. Personally I thought he looked balling.

agga wrote:as for the sith-jedi stuff, i've basically accepted it as an amoral power struggle. the sith are bad, the jedi are good - but they're all dead.



But that is just it, they aren't that simple. The sides are complex. Some of the Jedi are not generically 'good'. Technically some of the Jedi are responsible for their own downfall and some of the Sith are responsible for the success of the Rebellion. That is also part of the dynamic, if the Jedi were all good they wouldn't fall.


luke isn't a jedi, he's a superman.


I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion. Throughout the original trilogy Luke performs only minimally impressive feats. He is more of a star-pilot that than a Jedi. A superman would have cut down the Emperor and Vader and moved on.

who cares whether or not darth vader kills the emperor in episode VI? he's still a bastard.



I agree to an extent. Vader killing the Emperor would not make up for the destruction he has inflicted on the universe. Vader shouldn't really be forgiven that easily. However, his death and self-sacrifice was meaningful (for both him and his son). Also, not that it mattered who killed him, he had to die.


luke's either a moron for putting so much effort into "redeeming" vader - or he's in on the power struggle, and he knows the only way to get to the emperor is by flipping his psychotic father over again (and he knows it's possible since vader expressed an interest already in overthrowing the emperor and ruling the empire himself, with luke). ROTJ and the other luke skywalker stuff really works if you think of him as being a machiavellian, charismatic superman out for power and revenge. it least, in my mind it works that way.


I don't think you understand the struggle taking place. Anakin is the Chosen One. He is fulfilling the Chosen One Prophecy. He is restoring balance to the force by returning to the light side and ending the Sith's reign (I probably should have put this up above as well). Luke had to confront Vader, but victory for him wouldn't have been Vader's demise.

Why is Luke an idiot for wanting catharsis with his father? I don't think Luke is interested in converting him for any machiavellian sake. He cares nothing for power, and does not approve of revenge. His move to flip his father had nothing to do with an interest in ruling anything.

EDIT: Speaking of Sith Lords, my favorite is Darth Bane I guess. So far he is my favorite but I'm close to choosing Darth Krayt. I think Revan is entirely over-rated. Exar Kun was fairly impressive, as was Sidious really.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby agga » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:00 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:Technically some of the Jedi are responsible for their own downfall and some of the Sith are responsible for the success of the Rebellion. That is also part of the dynamic, if the Jedi were all good they wouldn't fall.


i'm talking about the movies, which is all i know. i don't see how any sith helped with the success of the rebellion -

Shikanosuke wrote:I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion. Throughout the original trilogy Luke performs only minimally impressive feats. He is more of a star-pilot that than a Jedi. A superman would have cut down the Emperor and Vader and moved on.


he wasn't powerful enough to take on the emperor - so he used his charisma and perceptions of vader's mental instability to pull him out of the dark side, because he knew that vader would then off the emperor. he was a mental superman.

Shikanosuke wrote:
who cares whether or not darth vader kills the emperor in episode VI? he's still a bastard.


I agree to an extent. Vader killing the Emperor would not make up for the destruction he has inflicted on the universe. Vader shouldn't really be forgiven that easily. However, his death and self-sacrifice was meaningful (for both him and his son). Also, not that it mattered who killed him, he had to die.


okay, the "who cares" was too much. and, i figure he and luke were both being genuine with the father-son stuff. but i think vader was also thinking, "we could rule the galaxy together, this really sucks", and luke was thinking, "man, i can't believe it worked".

luke's either a moron for putting so much effort into "redeeming" vader - or he's in on the power struggle, and he knows the only way to get to the emperor is by flipping his psychotic father over again (and he knows it's possible since vader expressed an interest already in overthrowing the emperor and ruling the empire himself, with luke). ROTJ and the other luke skywalker stuff really works if you think of him as being a machiavellian, charismatic superman out for power and revenge. it least, in my mind it works that way.


luke couldn't defeat the emperor himself. he had to rely on his charisma, connection with his father, and perception of his vader's instability. pull vader over the edge, and obviously he'll off the emperor. he was a mental superman, throwing down his lightsaber and letting the emperor zap him like that, right in front of vader.

Shikanosuke wrote:Why is Luke an idiot for wanting catharsis with his father? I don't think Luke is interested in converting him for any machiavellian sake. He cares nothing for power, and does not approve of revenge. His move to flip his father had nothing to do with an interest in ruling anything.


i don't believe it. look at the subtext. or maybe the sub-subtext.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:20 pm

agga wrote:luke couldn't defeat the emperor himself. he had to rely on his charisma, connection with his father, and perception of his vader's instability. pull vader over the edge, and obviously he'll off the emperor. he was a mental superman, throwing down his lightsaber and letting the emperor zap him like that, right in front of vader.


I'm still not seeing where that makes him a superman. Certainly he had to rely on his charisma, but his projection of will in throwing away his lightsabre was not oriented to his own benefit. When he refused to kill Vader, was that not a projection of will in self-denial, since we can tell he wanted to kill Vader?

On the other hand, it may be interpreted that his sparing Vader in defiance of Sidious was an act of prideful noblesse oblige - one warrior-prince saving the life of another in the hopes of further contests of will (which may include Luke's successful attempt to turn Vader against Sidious). If your concept of the 'superman' includes the aristocratic values of honour and personal prestige, there your interpretation might have some ground to stand on.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby agga » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:33 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:I'm still not seeing where that makes him a superman. Certainly he had to rely on his charisma, but his projection of will in throwing away his lightsabre was not oriented to his own benefit.


i'm convinced that he was confident in his control of the situation. he out-manipulated Sidious, by corrupting (un-corrupting) his servant and insinuating himself right into the throne room, serving as a distraction during an important battle. i think luke had it all worked out - his plan wasn't primarily to redeem his father, but to destroy the emperor by using the redemption of his father, something which Sidious was apparently unprepared for (though i do think it's pretty unbelievable that the emperor was unable to tell how hugely depressed and unhinged Vader must have been).

WeiWenDi wrote:When he refused to kill Vader, was that not a projection of will in self-denial, since we can tell he wanted to kill Vader?


maybe he lost control of himself for a few moments there, and almost upset his own plan by killing Vader - but then he felt the dark side creeping up and got a grip.

WeiWenDi wrote:If your concept of the 'superman' includes the aristocratic values of honour and personal prestige, there your interpretation might have some ground to stand on.


he did what he did to destroy the emperor, i'm certain of it. nobody but luke could have accomplished what he did, and he did it with supreme confidence - so he's a superman.
Last edited by agga on Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:33 pm

So clearly I support Jedi but I have a lot of sympathy with Sith ideology.

My favourite Sith... Well I actually quite liked Xathoros from the Jedi Apprentice series but otherwise I'm going to have to go for Bane.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:05 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:I'm also a fan of Revan - one of those Sith Lords who manages to be that much more awesome for his ambiguity, straddling the line between Light Side and Dark. But how do you know he wasn't uglier than Darth Maul? He always wore a full steel masque and body armour... (For that matter, I didn't think Maul was all that ugly, underneath all that face paint.)


I also like him because he used strategies and tactics to defeat his foes, but his ways differed from Darth Malak's. And you know what happened. Oh and how he had his own faction within the Jedi's the "Revanchists Movement". Defected from the Order he grew up in, and lead a war against them, making his own Empire. Then when the Jedi were crumbling he returns to join them and destroys the empire he founded. :D
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:46 pm

agga wrote:i'm talking about the movies, which is all i know. i don't see how any sith helped with the success of the rebellion -


Through betrayal. And you're right it really isn't shown in the movies. Vader trains an apprentice (though he really IMO doesn't qualify as Sith) who single-handedly saves the Rebellion and it's leaders. The Sith always do this, of course, because the Sith always betray one another as it is built into their philosophy power-grabbing ambition.


he wasn't powerful enough to take on the emperor - so he used his charisma and perceptions of vader's mental instability to pull him out of the dark side, because he knew that vader would then off the emperor. he was a mental superman.


His goal was to pull him to the light side, for the sake of pulling him to the light side. Offing the Emperor was not the objective nor did Luke have knowledge that would happen. There is no indication that Luke had such foresight, and considering how ill-planned most of his attempts were, it isn't even likely.


okay, the "who cares" was too much. and, i figure he and luke were both being genuine with the father-son stuff. but i think vader was also thinking, "we could rule the galaxy together, this really sucks", and luke was thinking, "man, i can't believe it worked".


Well, I think Vader thought that when he was dark-side Vader. However, the turn to the lightside eradicated such thoughts. Luke wanted him on the light side, and that was his goal. It was genuine and not a power-struggle move. That said, as reckless as Luke was, sure I'll give you even he was probably amazed it worked. But that was part of his trusting his connection with the force.


luke couldn't defeat the emperor himself. he had to rely on his charisma, connection with his father, and perception of his vader's instability. pull vader over the edge, and obviously he'll off the emperor. he was a mental superman, throwing down his lightsaber and letting the emperor zap him like that, right in front of vader.


Luke never attempted or plotted to take down the Emperor, though surely he wanted it. Again, no indication his plight to free his father was a power-move to immediately kill the Emperor. There is no indication that flipping Vader meant immediately flipping the Emperor.


i don't believe it. look at the subtext. or maybe the sub-subtext.


Oh I have.



agga wrote:
he did what he did to destroy the emperor, i'm certain of it. nobody but luke could have accomplished what he did, and he did it with supreme confidence - so he's a superman.


There is no indication that Luke had some long-range plan to destroy the Emperor. When he flees Dagobah to Bespin in ESB, when he was obviously outmatched and untrained, he ran straight to Vader as a test of himself to free his friends. There was no 'if I get him I can get the Emperor.' That said short-sightedness of Luke continues throughout both ROTJ and the EU. Luke is typically single-goal driven, obsessed with the more noble goal than the strategic one. Vader was the noble goal, and he often ignored strategic risks in pursuit of that/





mrbeate wrote:I also like him because he used strategies and tactics to defeat his foes, but his ways differed from Darth Malak's. And you know what happened. Oh and how he had his own faction within the Jedi's the "Revanchists Movement". Defected from the Order he grew up in, and lead a war against them, making his own Empire. Then when the Jedi were crumbling he returns to join them and destroys the empire he founded. :D


I respected the Revanchists because they were taking action at a time when the Jedi Order was, again, dragging their feet. I surely respect Revan, but don't forget he also got his butt handed to him by Malak and survived only by the grace of the Jedi.
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:53 pm

agga wrote:i'm convinced that he was confident in his control of the situation. he out-manipulated Sidious, by corrupting (un-corrupting) his servant and insinuating himself right into the throne room, serving as a distraction during an important battle. i think luke had it all worked out - his plan wasn't primarily to redeem his father, but to destroy the emperor by using the redemption of his father, something which Sidious was apparently unprepared for (though i do think it's pretty unbelievable that the emperor was unable to tell how hugely depressed and unhinged Vader must have been).


Shikanosuke wrote:There is no indication that Luke had some long-range plan to destroy the Emperor. When he flees Dagobah to Bespin in ESB, when he was obviously outmatched and untrained, he ran straight to Vader as a test of himself to free his friends. There was no 'if I get him I can get the Emperor.' That said short-sightedness of Luke continues throughout both ROTJ and the EU. Luke is typically single-goal driven, obsessed with the more noble goal than the strategic one. Vader was the noble goal, and he often ignored strategic risks in pursuit of that


The evidence against this interpretation would have to be Luke's discussion with the ghost of Obi-Wan after the death of Yoda. I think it is clear that defeating Sidious was among his goals (as part of his final test to become a Jedi), though it ought to be said that in that very same conversation he saw turning Vader back and defeating Sidious as one and the same goal (Obi-Wan disagreeing completely, thinking Luke would have to kill Vader, who has become 'more machine... than man').

The reason why I said any Luke-as-overman argument would have to depend on an interpretation which attributes noblesse oblige to his actions is pretty much precisely the single-minded drive and noble ethic that he displays so often in the films. I won't lie - it's very difficult for me to think of Luke as being anything approaching a Machiavellian realist when he's throwing his lightsabre away after besting Vader in single combat.

mrbeate wrote:I also like him because he used strategies and tactics to defeat his foes, but his ways differed from Darth Malak's. And you know what happened. Oh and how he had his own faction within the Jedi's the "Revanchists Movement". Defected from the Order he grew up in, and lead a war against them, making his own Empire. Then when the Jedi were crumbling he returns to join them and destroys the empire he founded.


To paraphrase one of Revan's companions, that's quite the resume, I agree. :)

But Kreia's interpretation of Revan's actions would indicate that he always had the destruction of the True Sith as his end goal, and that his defection from and war against the Republic was an attempt to gain a broad base of support from which to do so (noting that his grand strategy depended on leaving Republic infrastructure intact and keeping war casualties to a minimum; a strategy which was completely botched by Malak). Again, very tricky trying to ascertain whether Revan was light side or dark side - or either; I actually tend to think Revan was the true Machiavellian realist of the Sith Lords*.

Shikanosuke wrote:I respected the Revanchists because they were taking action at a time when the Jedi Order was, again, dragging their feet. I surely respect Revan, but don't forget he also got his butt handed to him by Malak and survived only by the grace of the Jedi.


Well, that's only because:

a.) Revan was squared off against a highly-skilled Battle Meditator (Shan Bastila) to whom he was attracted, and who was using her powers to divide his attention from Malak.
b.) Malak was on the Leviathan at the time and fired on Revan's Interdictor.

In my analysis, Malak got lucky - it's just that Revan got luckier. (If you want to use Obi-Wan's theology, however, Revan was under the providence of the Force.)

* Off-topic aside: my interpretation of the Jedi Civil War saga is that BioWare was attempting to tell its own story within the Expanded Universe and, ironically, found it too confining. So they took that same storyline and made their own universe out of it - this ended up being the Mass Effect universe. A lot of parallels, if you think about it: Cdr Shepard fulfills the same role in the story as Revan did; Saren as Malak, being manipulated by the Reapers (= the True Sith); the tension between Cerberus and the Systems Alliance mirrors that between the Sith Empire and the Republic, albeit with the moralistic overtones downplayed (and even more so once one considers Cdr Shepard's relationship with each and how his relations with his original crew, particularly Kaidan / Ashley, deteriorate once he joins Cerberus).
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:33 pm

Darth Revan/Revan vs Darth Vader/Anakin

I think Revan of course in my opinion :D .
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Re: Official STAR WARS Thread

Unread postby agga » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:24 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:
The evidence against this interpretation would have to be Luke's discussion with the ghost of Obi-Wan after the death of Yoda. I think it is clear that defeating Sidious was among his goals (as part of his final test to become a Jedi), though it ought to be said that in that very same conversation he saw turning Vader back and defeating Sidious as one and the same goal (Obi-Wan disagreeing completely, thinking Luke would have to kill Vader, who has become 'more machine... than man').


there you go - even Obi Wan wasn't able to see it. he just thought Vader/Anakin was a hard, evil machine, that couldn't be turned. for some reason, Luke knew otherwise.

WeiWenDi wrote:The reason why I said any Luke-as-overman argument would have to depend on an interpretation which attributes noblesse oblige to his actions is pretty much precisely the single-minded drive and noble ethic that he displays so often in the films. I won't lie - it's very difficult for me to think of Luke as being anything approaching a Machiavellian realist when he's throwing his lightsabre away after besting Vader in single combat.


i know i'm stretching things, but i don't think i've actually violated any of the movie material yet. i'm just imagining what's going on in Luke's head during all of this. obi wan and yoda confirm that Vader is his father, and Luke is somehow able to sense the presence of his father as such, and yet Luke never shows any sign of considering Vader's offer: "rule the empire as father and son". so ok, maybe he's not after power - but, i don't see why i shouldn't believe that Luke is thinking strategically when he gets the idea of turning his father back. Vader's a mass murderer and a notorious traitor, who couldn't expect better than trial and execution if he survived the final battle, and even in death deserves scorn, etc., despite his final act. i figure Luke's not dumb - in fact, in my mind Luke is a charismatic genius, portrayed as a scrappy underdog - so he must perceive this.

all that said, as i got older and started to see things this way (yeah, i'm making it all up because i like it better this way), it really started to bother me that you see anakin at peace with yoda and obi wan there at the end of ROTJ. i just don't think he deserves it, at all - unless, like you guys are saying, the Jedi aren't good at all, and it's all just a power game to them, which Anakin now gets credit for "winning". bah.
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