RTK XIII thread

Koei’s Romance of the Three Kingdoms game series—discuss it here.

Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Gray Riders » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:44 pm

Truth be told I've had my fill of the recent strategy game trend of rushrushrushcantdevelopcitiesmuchrushrushrush. ROTK XIII isn't fully in that direction yet, but it's a lot closer than some of the games in this series.
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:21 am

Gray Riders wrote:Gemfire. :) I got that game as a present a few years ago. Wish the AI was a bit btter and trading food wasn't so OP.


It's the sort of game that people fantasize about Koei dusting off and rebooting, until they realize all the cool stuff would just get removed to be replaced with some weird new system that will finally show promise 3-5 games later...and the AI still sucks because Koei.

DragonAtma actually released a mod of it that can be found on the Gemfire Gamefaqs board, I haven't tried it out because my emulator stuff is on an external HDD and I'm lazy, but it's interesting that the old games still have modding projects going.

The system where population=troops with no way to quickly hire more means reckless expansion is a lot safer than in most ROTK games. Playing as Lu Bu in 195 I gobbled up most of the empty cities with no reprecussions or attempts to capitalize from the AI, and even if they did I could march reinforcements or just abandon the city.


I think I mentioned this before. I put my created force in the game for the 195 scenario I think, with events off, and played as one of the officers (not the war minister). Lu Bu of course gobbles up Cao Cao here, and at this point had like 4 cities. Then, when he goes to attack Liu Bei in Xu, I use a privilege to suggest we attack Lu Bu's Chenliu since all his troops are deployed. Lu Bu never course corrected and I had control of the units deployed under the privilege, so I went ahead and casually wiped out Lu Bu.

rk47 wrote:It's the only way to make the AI play to win.


If you want a Koei AI to play to win, you have to give it 2/3rd of the map haha

Truth be told I've had my fill of the recent strategy game trend of rushrushrushcantdevelopcitiesmuchrushrushrush.


I'm unfamiliar with this strategy game concept, what does it mean?

(I only recently learned blobbing reading the SOI thread... :lol: )
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Gray Riders » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:42 am

Zyzyfer wrote:
It's the sort of game that people fantasize about Koei dusting off and rebooting, until they realize all the cool stuff would just get removed to be replaced with some weird new system that will finally show promise 3-5 games later...and the AI still sucks because Koei.

DragonAtma actually released a mod of it that can be found on the Gemfire Gamefaqs board, I haven't tried it out because my emulator stuff is on an external HDD and I'm lazy, but it's interesting that the old games still have modding projects going.

My Koei game in that category is Balor of the Evil Eye: Great ideas, but the economy system was broken (meaning you didn't need to spend any time on it at all, and doing so didn't really give you much) and certain systems were not thought through well. It's AI isn't terrible, though; it's just bad at dealing with a certain tactic that.

I'm unfamiliar with this strategy game concept, what does it mean?

It's not universal, but it seems recently strategy games seem to lean more and more on rushing being the only strategy that works; you must attack someone else immediately, and someone else right after, and so on and so on. Cities can't be improved much, or doing so is far more expensive and time consuming than simply capturing new cities.

It's hard to not notice that when the most recent Total War, Warhammer, first came out, it had it's "final boss" appear in less turns than it took to move from one period to another in the original Medieval: Total War.
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:10 am

Ah. Well I don't know how it compares to other contemporary strategy games but with XIII, once you hit a critical mass, the best strategy is basically to just go nuts. Like wipe out half the map nuts. Like don't bother moving officers around into those 15 cities you just conquered, go ahead and take another 5 first nuts.
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Gray Riders » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:45 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:Ah. Well I don't know how it compares to other contemporary strategy games but with XIII, once you hit a critical mass, the best strategy is basically to just go nuts. Like wipe out half the map nuts. Like don't bother moving officers around into those 15 cities you just conquered, go ahead and take another 5 first nuts.

That's honestly fine--helps shorten the boring parts.

I just find it annoying that a lot of strategy games now make "tall" (a smaller number of well developed cities) play either impossible or much worse than "wide" (conquering or settling large swathes of poorly developed territory).
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Calamitus » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:57 pm

"Going nuts" is the best strategy in Balor of the Evil Eye as well. From the start you can attack everyone relentlessly without building anything until you will capture the whole island. In Gemfire once you get 2-3 Wizard crystals and some crops to sell, you can count the game as won. (Koei recently released ROTK 1-3, NA 1-2, Bandits King of Ancient China and Genghis Khan 1-2 on Steam, maybe they will bother to release Balor as well).

Can anyone tell me stats of Wutugu and Dong Bai in RoTK13? (don't have the game yet).
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Gray Riders » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:54 pm

Calamitus wrote:"Going nuts" is the best strategy in Balor of the Evil Eye as well. From the start you can attack everyone relentlessly without building anything until you will capture the whole island. In Gemfire once you get 2-3 Wizard crystals and some crops to sell, you can count the game as won. (Koei recently released ROTK 1-3, NA 1-2, Bandits King of Ancient China and Genghis Khan 1-2 on Steam, maybe they will bother to release Balor as well).

Yeah, Balor and Gemfire both make that effective, but you don't have to rush in them, which is my complaint about a lot of modern games.


Can anyone tell me stats of Wutugu and Dong Bai in RoTK13? (don't have the game yet).

Wutugu: 79 Lead, 86 War, 1 Int, 3 Gov

Don't have the PUK so I don't have Dong Bai.
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:59 am

Gray Riders wrote:
Zyzyfer wrote:Ah. Well I don't know how it compares to other contemporary strategy games but with XIII, once you hit a critical mass, the best strategy is basically to just go nuts. Like wipe out half the map nuts. Like don't bother moving officers around into those 15 cities you just conquered, go ahead and take another 5 first nuts.

That's honestly fine--helps shorten the boring parts.


I can see where you're coming from. While you could blitz a series of cities in XI it generally forced players to at least come up for air to make sure each city has a couple of officers and transports are deployed for re-supply efforts. And I can't even remember the systems in III and IV anymore but you couldn't just dash and bash due to re-supply concerns, I think.

What's interesting about XIII is that you can't re-supply your army with fresh troops, except of course with those healing skills or taking a defensive posture in a city or gate.

However, with bandits absent in vanilla and resupplying food across your entire empire being as simple as clicking a few buttons, you can march almost indefinitely. And given the way the AI likes to go "all in" when defending, once you pop a force's cherry, there's nothing to hold you back.

Case in point, in last night's session as Cao Cao I realized I had another year before events would trigger again so I deployed 20 units to take Ma Teng's Changan. I wrapped up the session taking Liu Zhang's Chengdu with the exact same batch of units - which are still deployed and ready to wipe Liu Zhang off the map if I decide to. What started as a show of force intended to take Ma Teng down a notch in power and maybe convince him to surrender turned into "Hey look I conquered the west while Liu Bei tried to recruit Zhuge Liang lol".

I suppose I could disperse and give the dumb defender AI a fighting chance, but it's counter-intuitive. There should be something keeping the player in check from just riding roughshod - it's worth noting that, if I wasn't letting events fire off, I'd only mobilized about 1/3 of my army at most and even with their cities and development over the years, the Liu Bei/Liu Biao/Sun Quan tripod down south would be blown away like fall leaves in a gentle breeze.

(And before it gets blamed on playing OP Cao Cao, this has happened endless times, large forces just crumple once you pound the front door in, in pretty much every scenario)

I just find it annoying that a lot of strategy games now make "tall" (a smaller number of well developed cities) play either impossible or much worse than "wide" (conquering or settling large swathes of poorly developed territory).


Ah, thanks for explaining that, today I learned!

I do prefer tall play and that possibly may be at the heart of what I'm grumbling about. I think XIII is progressing in the "wide is good" direction. Koei dumbed down the game mechanics enough that all the AI has to do to be formidable is train units. So even if you put your back to the wall in one of the corners and intensely focus on development, you eventually top out, and so do the AI force cities. I've read accounts of players trying to do this and getting frustrated, slow and steady tall play is difficult in this.
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Gray Riders » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:17 am

Zyzyfer wrote:resupplying food across your entire empire being as simple as clicking a few buttons,

I recall mentioning years ago on Koei's old boards that I disliked that the RPG ROTK games simplified the strategy elements. People disagreed, saying you still developed cities and fought armies and every game should be an RPG because all the strategy elements are still present.

This is the sort of thing I meant. Nobody listened. Why didn't they listen?
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Re: RoTK XIII Announced! Screenshots and Release Date (Dec 1

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:39 am

Gray Riders wrote:Nobody listened. Why didn't they listen?


:cry:

=====

Oh and that's right. I did try out the catapult/siege tower on main base stuff. Cao Cao with Weapons 4 or 5 built the catapult and it did 27 damage per hit, kind of sad. Siege tower seemed to do better but it was hard to tell, Ma Teng had like 5 units on the base and they dropped like flies but it was hard to tell how much a lone tower contributed. I think I will have to do a siegey game soon, as well as a bows game (don't think they mix well), to see what it's like.

other details about that battle, in a spoiler to minimize my visible babbling
Ma Teng's castle defenses were like level 3 and I did notice the difference there. Increased durability meant the gate weapons took a while to destroy, which was noteworthy because I refused to lay down my siege stuff for the main base until those structures had been cleared off the wall.

That said, I still think castle weapons deal puny damage. After the initial wave of combat, I would rush the gate and then fall back to just across the river when an enemy unit stationed itself on the gate. Every time, the unit/units would rush out after my retreating units and get obliterated when I turned back. So what ended up happening was I wiped out the bulk of Ma's troops pulling back and then pushing forward, then beat down the gate by force with only a few defenders left, and then got ready for the main camp portion of the battle as fresh defender reinforcements started to arrive. Now, I could have done the same "pull back, push forward" tactic here as well, but I decided to try out the towers/catapults.

The take-away, however, is that while doing all this pull/push stuff, the estimated total losses on my side were about 7000 troops. I pulled/pushed several times and picked off several units, and this was a key "front door" battle, so I find those to be acceptable losses.

Random stuff...

- I am guessing nobody knows if lifespan items stack?

- Also, if the Siege skill affects damage units do to structures (i.e. the unit's demolition value) and Weapons affects both siege and castle weapon durability...what does Defense do?

- I noticed that Negotiate is almost useless. The base starting rate is 10%, no matter what INT, and then 1% is given for having Negotiate, with an additional 1% given for each level of it - e.g. Negotiate 2 gives 13% starting. That's pitiful. Looking at the mechanics, it should be like 5% per level. Maybe it inflates from this base amount in certain conditions...?

- It would be nice if a definitive description of skills existed.

- Curious how people feel about the HP of camps and main camps. Personally I find the values low, but I kind of misunderstood Siege/Weapons and made a bunch of revisions so that guys with Weaponry aptitude above C in XI got a corresponding level of Siege in XIII, and need to go back and fix this in some cases. So I'm curious about what others think, because enemy camps seem to fall very fast when I play...
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