Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

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Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:01 am

Okay, people know I tried my hand at a full translation of RTK11. It might have shown up except for two huge problems. One, Lezard left, and he was better at some technical aspects than I. Two, I found out I didn't like RTK11.

So the question is this: what do people see in RTK11?

Basically, I enjoyed RTK12 to a point, then went and played 9 for a while. Then I tried 10 again and realized at last why people don't like RTK12. Thing is, the flaws in 11 seem as bad as the flaws in 12. 10 had way more features than 11 or 12, and 9 had only slightly fewer than 11 but a far superior overall game.

Basically, what are the opinions on these four games and why?
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby rk47 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:10 am

I haven't played 9 & 12..
The last RTK I played before 11 is RTK3.
I found RTK 11 had enough depth to make it fun and worthwhile to play.
Distinction between land and naval engagements, unit specific tactics. Terrain affecting unit effectiveness. Officers with special abilities changing the course of war, duels, strategists.

I can live with the lack of balance - but the biggest letdown of RTK 11 is the AI and poor diplomacy.
If they had addressed that early on I would be quite satisfied, but as usual KOEI thinks western market isn't worth pandering to, and never localized the PUK patch.

RTK 12th being the last installment, I heard it's pretty crap with no English version available.
I guess they never quite understood why people abandoned that series due to the 'stupid AI' - they'd rather cater to the 'simple to understand' market of Dynasty Warriors. DW8 is out on Steam while RTK12 remains Chinese/Japanese only release.
Good job KOEI. Oh, wait, they also took Tecmo in for the jiggle-tech. Better DW for everyone.

Turn-based RTK franchise is pretty much dead in the water at the moment. What a shame while western developer like Paradox are showing how Grand Strategy is done right.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby Aaron.K » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:22 am

Out of all of them, 9 is my favourite (actually 3 and 6 are, but they're very old and dated and few people want to play them). The reason being that it just had so much more feeling into the game. There was a great amount of skills that meant you could have people do a lot of great things, even if their stats weren't so great, but their skill exp was high. Take for example the Ma clan. Most of them have fairly average stats, some are pretty poor, but if you get a chain combo using a cavalry tactic, even the most useless member still helped because of the high skill experience.

The other thing that mattered was officer compatibility within a unit. If they liked one another, the unit would perform much better than a unit where the officers were indifferent. The duels were nice, and with just a little bit of luck, Lu Bu could be beaten by someone with a much lower war score (pretty much impossible to do in 10 or 11). The AI was also better. Not all the time, since sometimes they would be stupid and only send one unit which was a tower, or a ram, but it wasn't completely awful compared to 10, where the AI could so easily be exploited it wasn't funny.

I'm sure others can give more objective reasons why 11 might be better than 9, but for me, the feel of a game matters a lot more than certain mechanics (such as the complaint about 9 where you couldn't actively control your army in battle, which didn't bother me. If you set up good units with a good formation, and good orders, you could get tactics to trigger almost all the time). The other big thing was utilizing defensive structures. Battles in the 3 Kingdoms period were rarely large set piece battles, but usually resulted in assaults and raids on camps and attacking other fortifications. The fact that you could build such things like outposts, camps, and forts was great thing, and the fact that you could garrison them was nice as well.

The other thing that set 9 apart from the other ones was the Barbarians. Once you'd gotten rid of most of your opponents, it was pretty easy to steamroll your way through the rest of the enemy territory. You could keep them at bay and decide to face off against the Barbarian tribes for a challenge. It just added a little bit more endgame content so that you could get some of the good endings.

That's all I have to say about that.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby Gray Riders » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:31 pm

IX: Had a lot going for it--you didn't need as much officer spam to succeed which made later scenarios much more playable, and mediocre officers were a lot more useful. It had a solid AI in most respects, but it was terrible at two things:
*Dealing with the barbarians. It just sits there, loses the city, might retake it, spends money building it up, then loses it again. If you "activate" all the tribes at the start this can be avoided.
*Finding and hiring free officers. This is what drops the game below XI for me; It was so atrocious at this that is can kill the game in some scenarios far too easily.

X: I seem to be the only person in the ROTK community that dislikes this game. I was incredibly excited at first but it turned into a giant disappointment--one of the biggest in my entire video gaming history. The AI is the worst I've seen in the series, especially with the prefects being 99% useless (and the useful ones are weird ones like Chunyu Qiong, while Lu Su seems to literally do nothing). Being a ruler sucks because you have so little control over your own force--you can't even order attacks from other cities and prefects regularly ignore you when you tell them to send reinforcements. This ain't European feudalism, Zhao Yun, and you aren't the count of Xu Chang--you are my appointed military governor, who serves only as long as I want you to. You don't owe me just 100 days of military service a year; when I say "send troops", you send troops.

And the events. You seldom have a choice so unlike VIII, you can't play Lu Bu as being loyal to Ding yuan once Li Su comes over--you automatically accept (yes, you can avoid triggering the event, but you shouldn't have to in order to avoid such a massive choice being made for you). Not only that but a lot of the events don't work right; Cao Cao gets a bunch of officers he isn't supposed to through them, like Gao Shun, Liu Bei gets Pang De when Ma Chao joins him (which probably breaks the Fan castle event later on!), and the yellow turban's end tends to put people in the wrong city (I once had He Jin's entire force disband from it, with the emperor moving to Liu Bei's city for no clear reason).

XI: Has some annoying points. The action point system seems like a needless way to slow everything way down, officer spam requirements are pretty bad, and the AI has serious problems. But I love the ability to build military infrastructure to fortify areas (the forts in IX were not that useful for defense), set up fire attacks, and have full control over my military forces in a giant map of China.

XII: Haven't played.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby Jebusrocks » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:39 pm

XI is better than X imo and miles better than 12, the combat system is a well fleshed out (esp. with PUK) and the game feels way fairer. Having said that, the AI is still pretty dumb, but compared to RotK X Expert, it is way better lol. The fact that units have special abillities makes the battle better, but it still has its problems (Pang Tong, Zhuge Liang Ma Su combo too stronk) and gets repetitive after a while (a fact i find in every ROTK game cept IX)

X was a complete disaster imo. Don't get me wrong, the game is amazing and I love it, but they tried to do way too many things with it. Any person with a decent grasp at the game can win so easily. The game feels so cheap (just go around, get all the best generals in hiding, build archer towers, gg) and the AI is by far the worst I've seen in a RotK game. PUK did little to alleviate these problems. City management is a hassle and time-consuming, and the rank systems feel tedious and pointless. Overral, the game is way too easy given how easily you can win virtually any battle (two archer towers or even one.. and strong cavalry is all you need to repel any siege vs AI). I liked the map a lot though, though tbh the map also leaves little to the imagination unlike XI or IX

I thought XII was going to be great, and gave it a chance when the PUK came out, as it added a lot to the game; but honestly the game feels so cheaply designed. Lesser cities, generals, weak city and diplomatic management, and the battle system still needs improvement. I feel like they dumbed the game down way too much to attract to a wider audience and make it playable on portable devices.

Being a ruler sucks because you have so little control over your own force--you can't even order attacks from other cities and prefects regularly ignore you when you tell them to send reinforcements. This ain't European feudalism, Zhao Yun, and you aren't the count of Xu Chang--you are my appointed military governor, who serves only as long as I want you to. You don't owe me just 100 days of military service a year; when I say "send troops", you send troops.


lol what, i dont think you understand the concept of Chinese feudalism lol... Also you can order attack from other cities if you are ruler, and prefects almost never refuse reinforcements. Maybe they fixed these with the PUK? Hell you can even order your troops to attack even if they arent under your district....
It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:08 am

A few things about X.

First off, if there is anything you can abuse to beat the game, just don't use it. Not difficult seeing as only a few cities can make towers or marksmen. It's like any game out there. There is always something abusable to win easily. Most RPGs have grinding levels to make it easier. Some games have super weapons available early that make the game cake. I can't really think of more than a handful of games that don't fit your complaint of X, truth be told. No one forces you to use the abusable stuff. Granted, X isn't hard at all, but you can make it harder.

The awesome thing about X, especially with the PUK, is that it's only as hard as you make it for yourself. As such, those complaints don't register higher with me.

Just my opinion, though.

I have a ton of complaints about XI. First off, the music sucks harder than any other RTK, and gets repetitive. If you play on the hardest difficulty, you'll only ever hear one or two musics (the being marched on music and the attack music) because you will get attacked non-freaking stop. It's not even hard, since the computer only sends one to three at a time. If it is difficult at all, it's usually so difficult you have no chance without super officers. Duels are rare, which sucks as well. There is also so very little customization in the game, unlike X. In addition, too much officer spam.

Again, just my opinion.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby Gray Riders » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:12 am

Jebusrocks wrote:lol what, i dont think you understand the concept of Chinese feudalism lol.

Sure I do. Compare Guan Yu in Jing to a French count in the twelfth century. Liu Bei could move Guan Yu away if he really wanted to, but the count can't just be told to move somewhere else and govern it instead.

Also you can order attack from other cities if you are ruler.

Not in the PS2 version, you can't. Maybe in the PUK.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby Jebusrocks » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:30 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:A few things about X.

First off, if there is anything you can abuse to beat the game, just don't use it. Not difficult seeing as only a few cities can make towers or marksmen. It's like any game out there. There is always something abusable to win easily. Most RPGs have grinding levels to make it easier. Some games have super weapons available early that make the game cake. I can't really think of more than a handful of games that don't fit your complaint of X, truth be told. No one forces you to use the abusable stuff. Granted, X isn't hard at all, but you can make it harder.

The awesome thing about X, especially with the PUK, is that it's only as hard as you make it for yourself. As such, those complaints don't register higher with me.

Just my opinion, though.

I have a ton of complaints about XI. First off, the music sucks harder than any other RTK, and gets repetitive. If you play on the hardest difficulty, you'll only ever hear one or two musics (the being marched on music and the attack music) because you will get attacked non-freaking stop. It's not even hard, since the computer only sends one to three at a time. If it is difficult at all, it's usually so difficult you have no chance without super officers. Duels are rare, which sucks as well. There is also so very little customization in the game, unlike X. In addition, too much officer spam.

Again, just my opinion.


Yea definately, if you can have fun "role-playing" your experiencing i can definitely see how X might be a better choice! Thats why I used to love the game when i was younger (when it first came out), but for me i just can't get over it. There's just way better games out there imo that simulate the "role-playing" experience! Look at for example EU4 or CK2 (theres a crapton of mods for CK2, like Game of Thrones, Elder Scrolls, LoTR, and even a Spring and Autumn Period, where you can play to pretty low ranks)

Also in XI I've seen enemies swarm me with 10-15 units in two cities. The AI is dumb, so its relatively easy to deal with but still. I never listen to game music, usually have other stuff turned on

Sure I do. Compare Guan Yu in Jing to a French count in the twelfth century. Liu Bei could move Guan Yu away if he really wanted to, but the count can't just be told to move somewhere else and govern it instead
.

Dude, the entire time period is set about disobeying and manipulatng your overlord.... You do realize that everyone pre-T'sao Pi were technically under the rule of an Emperor (much like say a French King). Furthermore your example counters your stance lol. Guan Yu was betrayed by his sub-ordinates (all with proper titles), leading to his loss in Jing province. Maybe in a game you can tell your men to go where-ever they please, but real life was much different...

A French Duke can actually be moved to somewhere else... thats how you get appointed (much like in China lol). Also much like China, there were much infighting and disobeying of orders by the King; the greatest example being the Bourbons disobeying the Valois (than kings of France) and eventually taking over. Feudal systems in both France and China were very fragile, and though China's system was a little bit more centralized, there is no doubt they had problems (why do you think the Three Kingdoms happened in the first place.. and why there were dynastic cycles in China). THE THREE KINGDOMS IS A STORY OF HOW DUKES AND COUNTS WENT AGAINST THE WILL OF THE EMPEROR AND CONQUERED IMPERIAL TERRITORY FOR PERSONAL GAIN. HELL, THEY EVENTUALLY FOUNDED THEIR OWN EMPIRES. To think that somehow China's feudal system was better than Europe's is because of the romanticized nature the Three Kingdoms is portrayed in the Media. China has such a problem with defections amongst their dukes and etc. that once a general became famous, the Emperor would often execute them in fear (ie. Han Xin, Yue Fei, Bai Qi, Gao Xianzhi, Zhu Yuanzhong's purges, etc. etc.). When you tell your "count" ( I dont even know why you keep using this word lol) to send troops both in China and France, the agreement is that you send troops, because otherwise, the French King/CHinese Emperor will come and subdue you with his significant force. It doesn't mean that they always did.
It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:15 am

I can't really compare XI to more recent games, but saw this and figured I'd write a response.

rk47 wrote:I haven't played 9 & 12..
The last RTK I played before 11 is RTK3.
I found RTK 11 had enough depth to make it fun and worthwhile to play.
Distinction between land and naval engagements, unit specific tactics. Terrain affecting unit effectiveness. Officers with special abilities changing the course of war, duels, strategists.


Technically I played IV rather than III before XI, but I do feel like XI is kind of the spiritual successor to III, which was a damn good game, all things considered. I know a lot of people mark out over II but I feel that III is more comprehensive, making the jump from the simplistic Gemfire style of gameplay to something more complex.

So when I first booted up XI and wrapped my head around the basics, I was like hey this is great, they've rebooted III and made it awesome! That didn't last forever of course, but I don't see myself going back to the old III (a modern rendition would be light years ahead of XI, however).

I can live with the lack of balance - but the biggest letdown of RTK 11 is the AI and poor diplomacy.
If they had addressed that early on I would be quite satisfied, but as usual KOEI thinks western market isn't worth pandering to, and never localized the PUK patch.


Personally, I've never understood the complaints about XI's AI. I've heard that other series blow ROTK out of the water, but within the series, it seems acceptable. I think people look at the iconic Bian Shi leading a ram to war example, or Liu Biao's ineptitude as a ruler, and apply that broadly. But, given how formulaic the AI's goals regarding combat are, and how that is a staple of Koei strategy games, it's more of a byproduct of lazy programming by the company than something particular about XI itself.

But yeah, diplomacy blows. I've mentioned before, each time I try a new Koei game, they throw out some cool older features and try to implement new stuff, and the transition is never 100% smooth. Take the change from III to IV. They added all those skills to make officers unique, and then you end up with people who can't even search for officers. They add a bunch of new plots to utilize, but most are ineffective or just end up trashing the city so that it will be crap when you take it over. They broaden field battles and turn the castle battles into a joke. You want to see bad AI? Check out IV, it is atrocious.

Anyway, with XI, things like Collaborate and Request Reinforcements are too useless to bother with. Diplomacy is either a tedious waste of time, or a joke, depending on if you have a smart officer with Negotiator. In return, we get a fairly streamlined battle system, with the only real weaknesses being the ease of laying siege to a city, and the odd nonsensical attack lanes that get used.

-----

Regarding the others...

IX - No comment, I am 100% unfamiliar with it.
X - It sounds like it's fun for playing your favorite heroes in an RPG capacity. Which is a great idea, but I do not want it in what has traditionally been a turn-based strategy series. A little drama every so often with governors hesitating to follow the ruler's command can add some excitement, but it shouldn't be so bad that it debilitates the game.
XII - The main thing that turned me off was how they reworked the skills. It sounds like everyone has passive aura skills and such, which frankly does not intrigue me. Having some is a great idea, but I like seeing active skills as well.
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Re: Questions about RTK 9, 10, 11, and 12

Unread postby Gray Riders » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:12 pm

Jebusrocks wrote:Dude, the entire time period is set about disobeying and manipulatng your overlord.... You do realize that everyone pre-T'sao Pi were technically under the rule of an Emperor (much like say a French King). Furthermore your example counters your stance lol. Guan Yu was betrayed by his sub-ordinates (all with proper titles), leading to his loss in Jing province. Maybe in a game you can tell your men to go where-ever they please, but real life was much different...

I'm not saying you should be immune to being betrayed. I'm saying being betrayed should be acknowledged as being betrayed.

I'm not going to debate you about European feudalism because it's just going to result in us posting at each other pointlessly for the next three days.

Edit: Responding to Zyzyfer

Personally, I've never understood the complaints about XI's AI. I've heard that other series blow ROTK out of the water, but within the series, it seems acceptable. I think people look at the iconic Bian Shi leading a ram to war example, or Liu Biao's ineptitude as a ruler, and apply that broadly. But, given how formulaic the AI's goals regarding combat are, and how that is a staple of Koei strategy games, it's more of a byproduct of lazy programming by the company than something particular about XI itself.

Yeah, the series doesn't have great AI in general, though looking at other games it could be so much worse.

But yeah, diplomacy blows. I've mentioned before, each time I try a new Koei game, they throw out some cool older features and try to implement new stuff, and the transition is never 100% smooth.

I always found it funny; the ROTK series tends to change tons of things needlessly. Amusingly, I saw an online review once saying there's no reason to play XI if you've already played X because Koei games are always the exact same. It left me wondering; has the reviewer never played XI, the game he was supposedly reviewing, or nevery played X, the game he was drawing a comparison to?
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