Full RTK11+PUK Translation Project Official Thread

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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:02 pm

Sure thing. I already put a mod on the Scenario.s11 file to change the titles your ruler can get. Some, like Mandarin, made me go "WTF?" They're closer to the official translation now, but not exactly. Grand General, sadly, doesn't fit, so I made it "Protector".

The titles now are:

Emperor
Regent
Duke
Baron
Protector
Marshal
General
Governor
Viceroy

I also made the ranks more fitting to the official translation as best I could.
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:36 pm

Oh, as a head's up on something I plan on for later on, I want to clean up the officer names a bit. It'd be nice to have surnames in the surname spot and given names in the given name spot instead of just smashing everything together. Sometimes, message scripts have officers saying their surnames and given names. In the Peach Garden Oath, for instance, Zhang Fei does this. Right now, it reads "family name Zhan, given name gFei".

I think it's possible to abbreviate names better.

For instance, Instead of Zhan gFei, it would be Zang Fei. I know it looks a little strange, but unless someone can figure out how the game programs the placement of names and the sizes of the fields, we're limited to 4 and 4. Xiah ouYu would become, for instance, Xhou Yuan. Xiah ouDu would become Xhou Dun. This would match the scripts better, though it might take a bit of time to get used to for people who've been playing this patch much longer than I have.

Also gonna fix city names and such.

Of course, message translations are top priority, but I figured I'd give a preview of later projects on the patch. I'll release the messages when they're done in their own file. Later on will bring about a more comprehensive patch release.

In case I didn't say it before, I fixed some stuff in the EXE as well. No longer do you have the "Plain" debate card, but now "Bellow" as it should be. "Refute" is now "Frenzy". The others are the same except for replacing "S", "M", and "L" with "1", "2", and "3". I also fixed the tones in the character creation menu because they were messed up really bad.

Oh, and for the scenario files, I've fixed all of the scenario descriptions 100%.

So yeah, that covers the rest of what I've worked on. It's a fun project.
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby Lezard » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:13 am

Some thoughts:

1) Patch
How far are you willing to go? Because if you really want to revise everything and do the best possible translation it would certainly be better to do so over a patched game.

The patch we could work on (I have it):
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/regist_c/user/san11/pk/san11pk_update.htm

As you can see it fixes several bugs and issues introduced in the exe by translators could also be corrected (some are damn annoying). The drawback is that you can't just make a few changes to increment the translation, you'd really have to revise the entire work (pretty much what you're doing with messages already would have to be done with the executable too — the rest is easy to handle).

2) Guide to MSGs
You could make one when you're done. From time to time somebody interested on the messages appears, but the lack of information is an obstacle. It'd also make it easier for people who wants to translate the game into other languages (I've seen Vietnamese and Persian so far).

3) Names
I think it's possible to abbreviate names better too. But what you have in mind isn't feasible. If you force surnames and names into 4 digits each the result would be very far from the examples given (Zhan gFei > Zang Fei or Xiah ouYu > Xhou Yuan). The best solution in the messages would be using both variables to show the entire name, if that can't be done you'll have to abide by the reality of merged name/surname on the messages project (besides it would be interesting to have messages that work well regardless of how other files were translated).

I'll post more about the names soon.
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:59 am

Yeah, you'll have to explain why it isn't feasible. There are only a select few names that are super long (Dailai Dongzhu for instance or Guanqiu Jian). Most of the more important people turn out well enough (like the ones I posted for Zhang Fei and the Xiahous), certainly everyone that's really important.

Granted, the ideal would be to find out where in the code the name fields are and change the code to remove the style and/or kana fields in order to distribute all that space to the names. Another thing that would be nice is if I found the part of the code that requires Japanese characters in all naming and change it to accept any input from any language. Sadly, I'm not a programmer so that is well outside my ability.

I don't think there's a way to change the messages to fit the names if only because it calls on the fields and is separated (like Zhang Fei's introduction).

As for the patch thing, not sure if I have the capability to pull that one off. Working from your EXE seems to be going well. If you know of glitches, I can definitely look into them. If I think I do have what it takes, though, I'll definitely look into what you posted for the patch.
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby Lezard » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:23 pm

Ok, perhaps "unfeasible" was a poor choice of a word. Still, we're limited to 4+4 chars (something that probably will never change — that's not simple) and we're trying to figure out which would be the most fitting workaround. So how can the naming system be improved? Which are our aims? That's something I've tried to figure out one year ago. I'll try bringing to light the few ideas I can remember I was pondering at the time in an attempt to answer these questions.

In my opinion there's no such thing as "really important" officers, everyone is important and it should be possible for the player to search for more information about every officer if he wants so (or be able to engage in a forum discussion for instance). The player should have access to all the correct names. So a file relating the abbreviations should came with the translation patch. I really think that there should be a way to know that the surname/name was abbreviated just by looking at the abbreviation (so the user knows whether to consult the file), something like a period right after it.

The abbreviations should be standardized. So if you decide to that "Zhang" will be "Zang" it should be done so for every "Zhang" officer that will have its surname abbreviated (or even every officer surnamed "Zhang"). This avoids unnecessary confusion and makes the life of the player easier.

Although there are only few super long names, there are many long names nevertheless, which will prove troublesome. These are the names you should pay attention to and not the "important" officers (which probably passed you a wrong impression of the results).
Officers list in order of appearance whose complete name is greater than 8
Yuan Shang
Wang Kuang
Wang Xiang
Wang Shuang
Wang Zhong
Wang Chang
Kuai Liang
Guo Youzhi
Xiahou Wei
Xiahou Yuan
Xiahou Hui
Xiahou Xuan
Xiahou Shang
Xiahou Dun
Xiahou Mao
Xiahou Lingnu
Guanqiu Jian
Guanqiu Xiu
Guanqiu Dian
Jinhuan Sanjie
Xing Daorong
Huang Ying
Huang Quan
Huang Chong
Gongsun Yue
Gongsun Yuan
Gongsun Gong
Gongsun Kang
Gongsun Zan
Gongsun Xu
Gongsun Du
Gongsun Fan
Huang Zhong
Gaotang Long
Huangfu Song
Chunyu Qiong
Jiang Yiqu
Xiang Chong
Zhongli Mu
Xiang Lang
Zhuge Qiao
Zhuge Shang
Zhuge Jing
Zhuge Zhan
Zhuge Liang
Xin Xianying
Sui Yuanjin
Cheng Gongying
Quan Shang
Cao Shuang
Sun Shang Xiang
Taishi Xiang
Dailai Dongzhu
King Duosi
Zhang Ying
Zhang Heng
Zhang Jiao
Zhang Hong
Zhao Guang
Zhang Chunhua
Zhang Zhao
Zhang Song
Zhang Shao
Zhang Cheng
Zhang Miao
Zhang Mancheng
Zhang Yang
Zhang Liao
Zhang Liang
Cheng Yuanzhi
Cheng Bing
Dong Cheng
Deng Zhong
Dong Tu Na
Pei Yuanshao
Mang Yachang
Bao Sanniang
Puyang Xing
Mulu Duosi
Lu Weihuang
Liang Xing
Liang Gang
Historical 01 ~ Historical 30
Emperor Ling
Emperor Shao
Emperor Xian
Huang Chengyan
North Star
South Star
Civil Official
Wuwan Chief
Wuwan Officer
Qiang Chief
Qiang Officer
Shanyue Chief
Shanyue Officer
Nanman Chief
Nanman Officer
Zhang Rang
Messenger
Aeromancer
Miscreant
Y. Turban Rebel
Young Woman
Craftsman
Fisherman
Lin Xiangru
Ying Zheng
Zhang Liang
Huo Qubing
Yang Dayang
Gao Changgong
Weichi Gong
Qin Liangyu
Zheng Chenggong
Cui Zhouping
Zhang Shiping
Guan Yinping
Xiahou Shi
Lu Yusheng

Officers list in order of appearance whose either name or surname is greater than 4
Yin Shang
Yuan Shang
Yan Xiang
Wang Kuang
Wang Xiang
Wang Shuang
Wang Zhong
Wang Chang
Kuai Liang
Guo Youzhi
Xiahou Wei
Xiahou Yuan
Xiahou En
Xiahou He
Xiahou Hui
Xiahou Xuan
Xiahou Shang
Xiahou De
Xiahou Dun
Xiahou Ba
Xiahou Mao
Xiahou Lingnu
Jia Chong
Hua Xiong
Guanqiu Jian
Guanqiu Xiu
Guanqiu Dian
Han Zhong
Yan Liang
Xi Zhicai
Jiang Wei
Jinhuan Sanjie
Xing Daorong
Xi Zheng
Yan Zheng
Yan Baihu
Huang Gai
Huang Ying
Huang Quan
Huang Hao
Gao Xiang
Gao Sheng
Huang Chong
Hou Cheng
Huang Zu
Gongsun Yue
Gongsun Yuan
Gongsun Gong
Gongsun Kang
Gongsun Zan
Gongsun Xu
Gongsun Du
Gongsun Fan
Huang Zhong
Gaotang Long
Huangfu Song
Wu Guotai
Hu Che-er
Cai Zhong
Chunyu Qiong
Zhong Yu
Jiang Wan
Zhong Hui
Jiang Gan
Jiang Yiqu
Jiang Qin
Jiang Ji
Jiang Shu
Xiang Chong
Jiang Ban
Jiang Bin
Zhong Yao
Zhongli Mu
Xiang Lang
Zhuge Ke
Zhuge Qiao
Zhuge Jin
Zhuge Jun
Zhuge Xu
Zhuge Shang
Zhuge Jing
Zhuge Zhan
Zhuge Dan
Zhuge Liang
Xu Huang
Xu Sheng
Xin Xianying
Xin Chang
Sui Yuanjin
Cheng Yi
Cheng Gongying
Sheng Man
Quan Shang
Cao Zhang
Cao Shuang
Cao Chong
Cao Xiong
Sun Kuang
Sun Shang Xiang
Sun Zhong
Sun Liang
Sun Luban
Taishi Xiang
Taishi Ci
Dailai Dongzhu
King Duosi
Tan Xiong
Zhang Yun
Zhang Gu
Zhang Ying
Zhang Yan
Zhang Heng
Zhang Wen
Zhang Hua
Zhang Kai
Zhang Jiao
Zhang Ji
Zhang Xiu
Zhang Qiu
Zhang Yi
Zhang Xun
Zhang Hu
Zhang Hong
Zhang Yue
Zhao Guang
Zhang Ji
Zhang Xiu
Zhang Ji
Zhang Zun
Zhang Chunhua
Zhang Zhao
Zhang Song
Zhang Shao
Zhang Cheng
Zhang Ren
Zhang Ti
Zhang Te
Zhang Nan
Zhang Nan
Zhang Miao
Zhang Fei
Zhang Bu
Zhang Bao
Zhang Bao
Zhang Mancheng
Zhang Yang
Zhang Yi
Zhang Liao
Zhang Liang
Zhang Lu
Cheng Yu
Cheng Yuanzhi
Cheng Yin
Cheng Pu
Cheng Wu
Cheng Bing
Dong Cheng
Deng Zhong
Dong Tu Na
Pei Yuanshao
Ma Yunlu
Ma Zhong
Ma Zhong
Ma Liang
Pan Zhang
Wu Anguo
Mang Yachang
Bao Sanniang
Fa Zheng
Puyang Xing
Mulu Duosi
Man Chong
Li Sheng
Liu Zhang
Liu Cheng
Lu Weihuang
Liang Xing
Liang Gang
Liang Xi
Liang Xu
Lu Kuang
Lu Xiang
Lu Lingqi
Historical 01 ~ Historical 30
Emperor Ling
Emperor Shao
Emperor Xian
Huang Chengyan
North Star
South Star
Thief
Civil Official
Soldier
Female
Child
Wuwan Chief
Wuwan Officer
Qiang Chief
Qiang Officer
Shanyue Chief
Shanyue Officer
Nanman Chief
Nanman Officer
Zhang Rang
Messenger
Nobleman
Doctor
Aeromancer
Empress
Old Woman
Wizard
Miscreant
Eunuch
Envoy
Officer
Guard
Bandit
Y. Turban Rebel
Warrior
Farmer
Merchant
Workman
Youth
Young Woman
Craftsman
Burglar
Traveler
Barmaid
Waitress
Fisherman
Scholar
Event 64 ~ Event A0
Zhang Yi
Lin Xiangru
Ying Zheng
Xiang Ji
Zhang Liang
Huo Qubing
Yang Dayang
Gao Changgong
Qin Qiong
Weichi Gong
Qin Liangyu
Zheng Chenggong
Bao Shuya
Lu Shang
Cui Zhouping
Zhang Shiping
Lu Baishe
Guan Yinping
Xiahou Shi
Zhang Shi
Lu Yusheng

As you can see there's a lot people to handle. Note that your approach (2nd list) not only greatly increases the number of people involved, but also of abbreviations necessary. Ideally the player should be able to remember the abbreviations and the need to consult the accompanying file should be minimized. So it would be a good idea to make as few abbreviations as possible so they're easier to handle, at the same time leaving as many names as possible as meaningful as possible (eg: why to abbreviate Yin Shang aggravating the problem — making it even harder for the player to tell who is who).

So to make the main point clear right now: I like things fitting in the boxes too, but the messages aesthetic is an insignificant pro when compared to the huge con of aggravating the recall effort required of the player in game. (so should I've said "counterproductive" previously?)

I think I should share my solution of one year ago since it's still the best I've got (nobody ever gave me feedback about it here in the forum ... ).
Changes Proposed
// Surname Rules (Apply to all officers):
----------------------------------------------
Wang = W.
Xiahou = X.
Guanqiu = Gnq.
Jinhuan = J.
Huang = Hg.
Gongsun = Gsn.
Gaotang = Gtg.
Huangfu = Hfu.
Chunyu = Cu.
Jiang = Jng.
Xiang = Xg.
Zhongli = Zgli.
Zhuge = Ze.
King = Kg.
Zhang = Zg. (the only with surname and name abbreviated)
Puyang = Pyg.
Mulu = Mlu.
Liang = Lng.
Historical = Hist.0
Emperor = Emp.
North = Nth. *
South = Sth. *
Messenger || Messeng. *
Aeromancer || Aeroman. *
Miscreant || Miscrnt. *
Y. Turban Rebel || Y.Turban * (no Kana)
Young Woman || Young = Yg.
Craftsman || Craftsm. *
Fisherman || Fisherm. *
Weichi = Wch.

// Name Rules (Apply to officer in question):
----------------------------------------------
Yuan Shang || Shang = Shg. *
Kuai Liang || Liang = Lng. *
Guo Youzhi || Youzhi = Youz. *
Xing Daorong || Daorong = Drg. *
Huang Chengyan || Chengyan = Cgyn. *
Xin Xianying || Xianying = Xnyg. *
Sui Yuanjin || Yuanjin = Ynjn. *
Cheng Bing || Bing = Bg. *
Cheng Gongying || Gongying = Gyg. *
Cheng Yuanzhi || Yuanzhi = Yzh. *
Quan Shang || Shang = Shg. *
Cao Shuang || Shuang = Shng. *
Sun Shang Xiang || Sun Shang = SS. *
Taishi Xiang || Xiang = X. *
Dailai Dongzhu || Dongzhu = D. *
Zhang Chunhua || Chunhua = Chua. *
Zhang Mancheng || Mancheng = Mchg. *
Zhang Shiping || Shiping = Shpg. *
Zhao Guang || Guang = Gng. *
Dong Cheng || Cheng = Chg. *
Dong Tu Na || Tu Na = TuNa * (no Kana)
Deng Zhong || Zhong = Zhg. *
Pei Yuanshao || Yuanshao = Ynsh. *
Mang Yachang || Yachang = Ycg. *
Bao Sanniang || Sanniang = Snng. *
Lu Weihuang || Weihuang = Whg. *
Lu Yusheng || Yusheng = Yshg. *
Official/Officer = O * (Chief & Official/Officer are the only without ".")
Chief = C *
Lin Xiangru || Xiangru = Xgru. *
Ying Zheng || Zheng = Zhg. *
Huo Qubing || Qubing = Qubg. *
Yang Dayang || Dayang = Dyg. *
Gao Changgong || Changgong = CgGg. *
Qin Liangyu || Liangyu = Lgyu. *
Zheng Chenggong || Chenggong = CG. *
Cui Zhouping || Zhouping = Zhpg. *
Guan Yinping || Yinping = Ypg. *

I'm proposing less than 30 surname changes and about 40 specific name changes with this solution. Big numbers, but how to reduce them with such severe limitation? Worth to note that if more officers are added in the future more troublesome names might appear that doesn't really fit in the solution, in the case the player added them he should be able to remember, but what about X series and such, should they be taken into account? I haven't back then.

Sorry for the huge poorly written post, I'm tired, but I think it might contribute for a better solution of the naming.
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby Lezard » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:38 pm

Well, can we expect a guide then? Would you be willing to help translating at least the MSGs of 1.1.1? If so I might try to translate the exe myself (though it would take ages for me to finish). :mrgreen:
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:33 pm

Oh, THAT patch. I completely forgot that the translation is on the normal EXE and not the patched one. How many significant changes were there? I'll have to take a look for sure.

As for the names, well, I think I got it covered. :) Basically, the kana name fielda are mostly still in Japanese, and the translations for the ancient officers are a bit weird at best. I would propose to put the full, unabbreviated names in the kana fields, so all a person would have to do is view the officer to get what's needed. The names in the name field would be "ZangFei", but in the kana fields, "Zhang Fei".
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby Lezard » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:45 am

I had the same idea back then, turned out that many full names don't fit in the kana field, in fact, sometimes not even the abbreviated part would fit if I remember right (note that I was in general only abbreviating the surname or the name — only a few Zhangs had both abbreviated).

I really think you should take your time and think more thoroughly, try playing around the long names on the lists I gave you.

Of course that's your project and I just want to make it clear that I'm willing to help regardless of your decision. Basically you will have to translate one scenario thoroughly, then I can replicate that translation to all the others.
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:38 am

Most full names fit in the kana space, that's what I did way back when I still played PUK.
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Re: Looking for information to further translate RTK11+PUK

Unread postby Lezard » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:50 am

Yes, but many don't. What you did in these cases?
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