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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:30 pm

XuanZhongda wrote:87/87 WAR (If he's a warrior that can compare to Zhao Yun novel-wise, sure, why not...)
89/85 INT (I'M BEING VERY GENEROUS HERE.
76/71 POL (This should be abysmal. Again I'm being generous)
73/64 CHR (He wasn't charismatic at all. He wasn't popular with too many of the Shu officers, forced people from Wudu to relocate.)
91/82 LDR (How many campaigns did he fail.


I was trying to be very nice based on Lord Yang Jiahua's stats but you just bunked that. :lol:

Zyzyfer wrote:Sun Quan – Providence


YES! My advice on Sun Quan getting Providence was heeded.
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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Gray Riders » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:44 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:Guan Ping W 85 (reason given means Xiahou Mao deserves a WAR boost, hah!)

Guan Ping's boost is mostly because he actually fought Pang De to a tie, though with only a 30 bout duel. Don't think Xiahou Mao actually dueled in the novel, though. He definitely used himself as human bait, atleast, and I could see him getting decent War.

Zhang Xiu: As noted, I'll cry if I see another Forced Gallop.

Yu Jin: I am really hung up on the fact that he doesn't have a unique crit portrait. He can keep Divine Spears for now but I would prefer to find the skill a better home.

Jiang Wei: I read over the nine campaigns he launched and the fall of Shu. While he's obviously overrated, being the prodigy of Zhuge Liang the Great, he did successfully repel Deng Ai a few times (they effectively had a stalemate from what I gathered) and after losing Hanzhong in terrible fashion, he did block off Zhong Hui, who would've been forced to retreat if Deng Ai didn't have several huge strokes of luck with Ma Miao surrendering and Zhuge Shan being forced to fight. The Wikipedia article on the fall of Shu is actually fairly detailed.

Taishi Ci: I could never find the specific Hefei death information on Wikipedia so graced him with 10 years beyond the final battle mentioned. It'll be adjusted to 219, under the same principle that he lived longer and died in combat in the novel, thus making him better. I feel like he dies a bit too early to really enjoy.

Qu Yi: Maybe set his death to 197 or 207?

How about "Entrap" for Zhang Xiu, then? Decent skill, seems to make sense for Wan.

Divine Spears: For what it's worth, I'm still totally in favor of giving it to Xu Chu--who has a critical portrait. Might be weird for Dian Wei not to have a skill of that caliber, but Dian Wei didn't seem as good at troop charges (there's the part in the novel Ruxu where Sun Quan was in trouble because of Xu Chu diving his column).
In any case I think it's agreed it has to be a Wei officer.

Qu Yi: Was definitely dead by Guandu. 197 is, I believe, what I set his death to when I hex edited the files. Last place I can find him seems to be December of 195, when he, Liu He, Xianyu Fu and the Wuwan all attack Gongsun Zan and destroy his armies.

Edit: I assume you're just making Taishi Ci's natural life longer and not resurrecting him in the 211 scenario?

Edit 2:
Zhuanyong wrote:YES! My advice on Sun Quan getting Providence was heeded.

Congratulations!

You know, an immortal, uncatchable Sun Quan with decent War who, being a ruler has a big bonus to duels being accepted, can run around challenging people to duels left and right with little harm for losing (but it's really not that much worse than having Sun Ce or someone like that loaded down with dueling items doing it, and duels are easy to win on Beginner if you use Defend). Not really overpowered so much as hilarious.
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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:14 pm

Xiahou Mao: Apparently in the novel he dueled Zhao Yun for 50 bouts. It's been ages since I read it so I can't confirm. But my search did yield his highly amusing profile on Kongming!

Zhang Xiu: It'll require some playtesting to make sure Zhang Xiu doesn't totally slip up but what I'm thinking is Hu Che'er's Vehemence will compliment Zhang Xiu's Cavalry General when they're in separate units. It's simply amazing how Zhang Xiu managed to beat Cao Cao not once, but twice, with inferior resources at his disposal.

Xu Zhu/Divine Spears: Hmm...I could buy that. He did get a moderate LDR boost to 80 or so as well. Dian Wei doesn't live long enough for the whole comparable skill thing to matter, but I could switch Vehemence to Dian Wei if Escort really is that mundane to people. I think Dian Wei serves his purpose fine with Escort, though.

For Yu Jin, he'd either get Spear General or Clear Thought, on par with Xu Huang's reduction to Pike General or Clear Thought. I'm thinking Xu Huang should get Pike General (it's the new Cunning) and Yu Jin would possibly get Clear Thought.

Qu Yi: I'll set it to 197 then. Speaking of Liu He, is he still floating around in 194?

Taishi Ci: Yes. Shoot, I thought I'd have to go back and edit him in 211 because I wasn't thinking. He will appear in 207, but not 211.

Sun Quan: lol - I'm quick to shoot down something nonsensical but Providence is a great idea for him. Zhuanyong, you do not realize how long his skill has been on the table. I'm bending the rules for Liu Shan because Providence would be a higher tier than Benevolent Rule but I think it's the one exception that can be made.
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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Gray Riders » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:38 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:Xiahou Mao: Apparently in the novel he dueled Zhao Yun for 50 bouts. It's been ages since I read it so I can't confirm. But my search did yield his highly amusing profile on Kongming!

Just looked over all his appearances in the novel and couldn't find any duels for him--though I thought I remember one, too. His encounter with Zhao Yun had a bunch of his generals fighting him (and running away) to lead him into Cheng Wu's ambush, which almost captures Zhao Yun, but he's rescued by Guan Xing and Zhang Bao (so yes, Xiahou Mao almost beat Zhao Yun, thanks to Cheng Wu--who never appears before or since).

Zhang Xiu: It'll require some playtesting to make sure Zhang Xiu doesn't totally slip up but what I'm thinking is Hu Che'er's Vehemence will compliment Zhang Xiu's Cavalry General when they're in separate units. It's simply amazing how Zhang Xiu managed to beat Cao Cao not once, but twice, with inferior resources at his disposal.

Yeah, Zhang Xiu was my favorite "lesser" warlord but he's practically unplayable without created officers--only three officers and a powerful Cao Cao is right next door...and coming for you. I gave him some fictional officers which tends to let him survive a lot longer under AI control (though he inevitably divides his army by taking Shang Yong and gets destroyed anyways).

Qu Yi: I'll set it to 197 then. Speaking of Liu He, is he still floating around in 194?

No, Koei has him set to die with his dad, while he historically seems to have led troops in one of the attacks on Gongsun Zan.

Sun Quan: lol - I'm quick to shoot down something nonsensical but Providence is a great idea for him. Zhuanyong, you do not realize how long his skill has been on the table. I'm bending the rules for Liu Shan because Providence would be a higher tier than Benevolent Rule but I think it's the one exception that can be made.

Yeah, that suggestion is a lifesaver. It's just perfect, and now all those people who want to kill Liu Shan can!
Of course, all those people who want to kill Sun Quan no longer can, but if Zhang Liao couldn't finish him off in real life, I doubt any of us could.
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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Hyper90 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:08 pm

jesus christ you guys, less than 24 hours been 5 pages already ?

ok imma sum up and agreed most on gray's ideas. his thinking suits mine , part of it

like these

Aside from having Skills I think Yuan Shao's advisors could use some Int boosts (except Guo Tu and Xu You). Suggestions:
*Tian Feng--96. Reason: He came up with an excellent plan to defeat Cao Cao and constantly pushed to destroy him at various opportunities. Cao Cao himself said that if his advice was followed things he would have remained in balance.

*Ju Shou--95. Reason: He came up with a plan for Yuan Shao to unify the land, and it was working perfectly until Yuan Shao ignored the last step.


*Shen Pei--85. Reason: Came up with a scheme that almost killed Cao Cao at Ye, hiding crossbows and waiting for him to come into range to inspect the siegeworks. In the novel he came up with the plans at Guandu that gave Cao Cao trouble (historically they seem to be Yuan Shao's own though).


*Yuan Shao: Lead 85, War 75, Int 80, Spear S. Reason: Was going to fight Dong Zhuo sword to sword in the capital, so I doubt he was a weakling. Beat Gongsun Zan handily (given S spears to enable that in-game), swept through the bandits that rose in Ye during the war. Trying to surround and isolate Cao Cao at Guandu was a good plan, failing not from his own mistakes but because Cao Cao was so skilled (and since all it cost him was the messengers he sent, the failure didn't even hurt him). After Guandu he was able to swiftly recapture the cities that defected to Cao Cao.

*Guo Yuan: Lead 85, skill "Siege". Reason: Captured several cities and was giving Cao Cao trouble, ultimately being defeated because of Ma Teng's reinforcements.

*Zhang Xiu (the Wan one): Lead 87. Reason: Even with Jia Xu, winning those battles against Cao Cao required command skill, and after the defeat of Yuan Tan he received more households for reward than any other Cao Cao officer--more than twice as many households as any other general. Sadly we don't know exactly what he accomplished there.
I'd suggest changing his skill; his War is too low to use Cavalry General. How about Vehemeance, since three officers were killed in the ambush at Wan?

*Probably controversial, but I switched Wen Chou's skill to Stampede and gave Cavalry General to Gao Lan (who I gave S class cavalry and a War of 89 or so--after all, he fought Xu Chu evenly in the novel) and think it would fit here too. Stampede would give him a skill on the same level as Yan Liang's Majesty but with drawbacks (doesn't work on other very strong Cavalry officers, marshes and forests block it and forests are common). Plus it seems to fit Wen Chou's scene in the novel where he charges right through Gongsun Zan's army, killing a general and plenty of troops before going right through Gongsun Zan's army (evidently routing or severly demoralizing it, since Gongsun Zan withdrew to fight the next day).

*Gao Shun. Lead: 92, War 89, Int 80. Reason: Attacked Liu Bei, decisively beat off Cao Cao's reinforcements (which included Xiahou Yuan in the novel) then drove Liu Bei out. Put down a military revolt quickly and decisively.Said that his troops found victory whenever they fought despite being only seven hundred strong, and the method they fought with (breaking in and getting surrounded by the enemy formation) required him to be both an inspiring leader and a powerful fighter. Gave Lu Bu good advice, often remonstrating him for his inconsistency and failure to plan efficently.

*Chen Gong: Int 92. Reason: Novelwise, he tricked (or almost tricked) or predicted the actions of Cao Cao and his officers a few times and came up with plenty of good suggestions. No match for higher end strategiests like Guo Jia but quite smart.

*Cheng Yu: Int 94. Reason: Saw through fire attack in the novel. Historically, he knew that not receiving reinforcements would stop Yuan Shao from attacking him and talked Cao Cao out of sending his family to Ye for safekeeping during the battle for Yan, stopped Lu Bu from taking three cities, and correctly predicted that Gongsun Zan would lose the war with Yuan Shao despite holding the upper hand at that time. I have no idea why Koei rated him so low in some of the games.

*Ling Tong: 85 Lead, 90 War, Int 61, 85 Charisma, skill Pike General. Reason: Gonna require explaining for such a big jump, so this is a bit long. At the age of 15, he led an attack so fierce the side of the garrison he charged was overcome instantly. In the attack on Huang Zu he rode far ahead of the main force with tends of marines; he beheaded one of Huang Zu's generals and captured his soldiers. Later, when Huang Zu used two great ships to block the river with one thousand crossbows, Ling Tong and Dong Xi stormed it with one hundred men each and cut the ropes anchoring them, letting Wu's fleet pass. Ling Tong was also the one to capture the city itself. At Hefei (the second part where Wu's vanguard was gone and Zhang Liao ambushed them) he rescued Sun Quan by charging into Zhang Liao's encirclement, killed scores of enemy and only fled after his entire force as dead. Later he suggested recruiting the hill people, and because he was known to treat men well, ten thousand elite troops joined him.

*Wu Tugu: War 92, Int 31. Reason: The guy, according to the novel, subsisted on poisoned creatures, towered over even Guan Yu, and wore impenetrable armor. I just think he should be scary to fight. Also, there is no reason for him to be the single stupidest person in existence, hence the "below average" Int instead.

*Qu Yi: Lead 89, War 85. Reason: Great general who humiliated Gongsun Zan with a tiny force. Boosted War means his skill actually works on the guy he defeated.


Now for Lu Meng; he's my favorite officer, so keep that in mind, but I am trying very hard to be objective for his stats. You already had plans for him on Koei's board, but I'd give him 93 Int and 86 War. He got his start as a warrior, killed Chen Jiu personally in battle, and protected Sun Quan at Hefei. He used tons of ploys that pretty much all succeeded, hence the Int. Novelwise, his War's pretty easy to go by; he was one of the few people willing to fight Guan Yu and threatened to fight Gan Ning and Ling Tong himself to break up their fight.

Anyways, you wanted Shu suggestions? You got em!
*Wang Ping: Lead 90, Int 86. Reason: Tried to stop Ma Su's mess. Was able to withstand Zhang He. Scored a victory over Wei when they invaded at the battle of Xingshi, planning everything out perfectly.


*Huang Zhong: Lead 90, War 95, Int 73. Reason: Shouldn't be so much weaker than the other tigers, and he fought Guan Yu evenly. Outsmarted and defeated Zhang He in the novel and led Xiahou Shang and Han Hao into a trap. Was instrumental in beating Xiahou Yuan.

*Lei Tong: Int 70. Reason: Told Zhang Fei to plan an ambush against Zhang He, which succeeded. Not too high because he then fell into Zhang He's ambush and got killed.

*Ma Chao: Int 61. Reason: Yes, I know, odd choice. But Ma Chao wasn't that stupid in the novel; he came up with some decent plans and rooted out a traitor in Shu.

*Wei Yan: Lead 85. Reason: Highly successful as a general; 81 just seemed too low.

*Guan Ping: War 85. Reason: Dueled Pang De and held up well for thirty bouts. If he wasn't fairly strong he'd have died, considering Pang De was a match for Guan Yu and Xu Chu.

*Guan Xing: Skill Pike General. Reason: A skill upgrade to help Shu in 225. Also, he was portrayed as a great warrior in the novel. Similarly;

*Zhang Bao: Skill Spear General. Reason: Same as above.

*Wu Ban: Int 71. Reason: Came up with a plan against Wu to use false defectors, which worked.

others no comment.

Divine Spears: For what it's worth, I'm still totally in favor of giving it to Xu Chu-

yes !! but the LDR boost doesnt suit him. he really cant lead large battalions of men like cao cao or xiahou dun can. his LDR stays. we could make him sworn sibling with someone else to boost his LDR.

Xu huang or pike gen, i do agree too.
yu jin can have clear thought or stays integrity. dont give him attack skills

for ju shou and tien feng, i might suggest them having the skills similar to the sima brothers.

for shen pei from gray's explanations , switching to critical ambush fits better.

ah , zyzyfer mentioned about zhao yun being flying general or valiant, but i thinking flying general would've taken over lu bu's skill...

i totally disagree about giving zhang he for insight, he died in an ambush from zhugeliang remember ?

jiang wei is good, but counter plan seems to cover his potential of a warrior. valiant general might cover up for him though. he IS valiant in fighting.

Li Yan C 47 S 24 Archer General

finally !

Cao Ren P 42 L 5D I 46 Bows S S 24 Archer General

no. absolutely no. indestructible suits him more. besides he stay stood in Fan.

EDIT: zhang yi (bogong) should take assistance, he still follow jiang wei's expeditions even thought disagree with his plan of attacking north
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die. " Sima Yi

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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:09 pm

Gray Riders wrote:Congratulations!

You know, an immortal, uncatchable Sun Quan with decent War who, being a ruler has a big bonus to duels being accepted, can run around challenging people to duels left and right with little harm for losing (but it's really not that much worse than having Sun Ce or someone like that loaded down with dueling items doing it, and duels are easy to win on Beginner if you use Defend). Not really overpowered so much as hilarious.


I never really noticed a difference between duels on beginner and advanced. The only major difference I noticed between levels was how often you get attacked and how much the AI is stacked with supplywise.

I believe that would be awesome for Quan.

Quan - 'Hey, Zhou Tai! Let's attack Cao Cao at Hefei!'
Tai - 'Ok, sire'

(At Hefei)

Quan - 'Zhang Wenyuan! I challenge you to a duel!'
(Owned)

Quan - 'Xu Huang! I challenge you to a duel!'
(Owned)

Tai - 'Erm, I think we should go now...'
Quan - 'No, that's fine it's not like they can kill me.'

I can do some epic things with that kind of Sun Quan.

Xu Zhu/Divine Spears: Hmm...I could buy that. He did get a moderate LDR boost to 80 or so as well. Dian Wei doesn't live long enough for the whole comparable skill thing to matter, but I could switch Vehemence to Dian Wei if Escort really is that mundane to people. I think Dian Wei serves his purpose fine with Escort, though.


I always thought Escort suited him because of the whole Wan event. Vehemence may be just as fine.
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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby XuanZhongda » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:28 pm

Eh? It seems as if Xu Zhu will get Divine Spears then. Oh well.

I say Yu Jin get's Spear General, and Xu Huang Clear Thought.

Zhang Xiu... that's a toughie. Randumb suggestion, but how about Sweep Asunder?
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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Hyper90 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:42 am

XuanZhongda wrote:Zhang Xiu... that's a toughie. Randumb suggestion, but how about Sweep Asunder?


zhang xiu doesnt spread fear, vehemence would do
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die. " Sima Yi

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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:51 am

Hyper90, you realize that Indestructible is useless outside of naval combat, don't you? 500 soldiers are pretty easy for even weaklings to take out. It's basically a poor man's Raid for crappy defender generals. Cao Ren's boosts have actually been approved by several people. I'm not in love with Archer General but nobody has recommended anything else so far. Indestructible is one of my least favorite skills, as is Iron Wall, and otherwise there aren't any effective defensive skills except the bountiful Fortitude skill. Aegis would be perfect if the fire weakness wasn't present.

Yu Jin is generally noted as a highly capable commander when he's not kowtowing to Handsome Beard Guan Yu (who has higher LDR than the boosted Yu Jin) and often gets mentioned for LDR boosts. Which reminds me, not that you did it but rather I just remembered, I forgot another basic guideline for this.

5. Don't nitpick over a single point
- You may think Cao Ren deserves 71 INT over 70 but a difference like this is hardly the 100 over 99 for strategist kind of thing; save the discussion for a thread that isn't going to change anything

Anyway...

Lu Bu/Zhao Yun: I can't protect every officer's precious little "unique" skill. If Zhao Yun gets Valiant General Sun Ce fanboys are butthurt. If he gets Flying General Lu Bu fanboys are butthurt. If everybody's going to be butthurt, I'll just give him Puissance and be done with it. Insight is a fantastic skill but makes Zhao Yun much less fun to use.

The only properly protected skills are the Divines and Cao Cao/Liu Bei/Sun Quan's skills. Everything else is open for the taking.


Zhang He: Actually I'm in agreement with Hyper90 on this, Insight seems a little weird for him. But it's always suggested - usually along with another skill - when he comes up.

An interesting suggestion for Insight was Hao Zhao, based on his defense of Chencang.

Ju Shou/Tian Feng/Shen Pei: I don't remember what the Sima boys have exactly. But Counter Plan is the main contender for Tian Feng. Ju Shou has had everything recommended so the Ju Shou fanboy in me went with the best idea, Focus. As for Shen Pei, Critical Ambush is good but only in the right areas. I'm not sure if He Bei has enough forests to make it better than Pike General.

Zhang Yi (Ni? I always get them mixed up): Interesting recommendation. Assistance only has a 25% success rate but it's a good skill in some cases.

Glad somebody appreciates Li Yan lol

-----

Xu Zhu: Divine Spears isn't set in stone. Just like with Sun Quan, somebody may wander into the topic and make the perfect recommendation for the skill. He's just keeping it warm for now, so to say.

Zhang Xiu/Vehemence: Hu Che'er already will have Vehemence. Having two guys in a three-officer force with Vehemence might be amusing, though. Sweep Asunder to me is quite low on the skill totem pole
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Re: Making Adjustments to Officers in ROTK XI

Unread postby XuanZhongda » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:07 am

I actually am one of those nitpicky guys... Because, you know, those one or two points do make a difference to me. :lol: 79 isn't quite the same as 80, y'know?

I have no suggestions for Cao Ren, really...

I like Sweep Asunder. |_|
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