RTK VI Discussion Thread

Koei’s Romance of the Three Kingdoms game series—discuss it here.

Do you recommend Koei’s Romance of the Three Kingdoms VI?

Yes
49
79%
No
3
5%
Unsure…
1
2%
Never Played It…
9
15%
 
Total votes : 62

Unread postby rtkemperor » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:12 pm

I have always conquered the whole china as prime minister. Never got emperor status from talking to my officer.

My current game PR 100, along with hereditary seal, but it it still not happening yet :cry:

Is there anyway to lower the existing emperor's PR ?




Ranbir wrote:You can either complete the game, and depending on how you rule (and maybe your dream) and become Emperor.

Otherwise, when you talk to your officer, if one of your has the advance dream or empire one, he can suggest you take the title, providing you have the Seal!

I also think there is a point where the ruler abdicates in favour of your kind rule during the game.
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Unread postby Fei Yi » Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:39 pm

When playing as Cao Cao in my currnet game I'm gettimg a little annoyed at one aspect of the game: officer loyalty. I play the game on historical mode, but still when I conquer Kong Zhou his officer Xu Huang doesn't want to join me... :? . Historically speaking he did serve Cao Cao, so I feel he should be glad I give him the oppertunity to serve me. The same has happend to me when recruiting Fa Zheng while playing as liu Bei. Is there any way to increase the chance that an officer will switch sides after you capture him? Also, when you kill his ruler will he hate your guts forever or does this increase the chance of an officer joining you since he has no ruler anymore?
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Unread postby arkaeyn » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:42 pm

Victory! In 222, Lu Bu smashed through Guan Yu's Shu-in-exile in the northeast. With Ma Chao as a vassal, that ended the chaos caused by the Yellow Turbans. Cao Cao and Cao Pi urged that Bu take the Imperial throne, but Lu Bu, ever-modest, declined.

Thoughts on the gameplay system:

One of my primary problems with Koei's ROTK games is their difficulty, and being able to beat the game on my third try with a non-major power indicates that 6 is no exception. That said, military success seems to be a function of momentum, and there were several times when I could have lost it, most notably, if I had been forced to fight a two-front war. Also, for the first 15 years or so, I was walking a very tight rope, with 3 cities and virtually no troops (or ability to draft more).

The speed of the game is better than other ROTKs, thanks mostly to the slightly more real-time combat. However, the ability to have combat auto-sim for some battles would have been much nicer.

No successful non-foreigner revolutions. Annoying, but not unexpected.

Right now, I'd lean towards agreeing that it's the best of the series, but still very flawed.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:30 am

Fei Yi wrote:When playing as Cao Cao in my currnet game I'm gettimg a little annoyed at one aspect of the game: officer loyalty. I play the game on historical mode, but still when I conquer Kong Zhou his officer Xu Huang doesn't want to join me... :? . Historically speaking he did serve Cao Cao, so I feel he should be glad I give him the oppertunity to serve me. The same has happend to me when recruiting Fa Zheng while playing as liu Bei. Is there any way to increase the chance that an officer will switch sides after you capture him? Also, when you kill his ruler will he hate your guts forever or does this increase the chance of an officer joining you since he has no ruler anymore?


Xu Huang is one of the officers with the "Loyalty" dream, which means he will do anything for his current ruler and is on a different plane of loyalty than other officers. Plus, he probably had 100 loyalty in the game you were playing. Combine those and he isn't likely to defect, no matter who it is to. If you want to get specific officers to join you, you need to target the city they're in with rumors and hope it affects their loyalty. It's possible to get Xu Huang away from Yang Feng, as Cao Cao, in this manner. The same kind of way it happened in history. But don't expect officers to join you with high loyalty to their current leader, just because they did something otherwise in the book. If you start in a early scenario where they have no ties to that ruler, it'll be reflected in the game, though because of dreams they may have a tendency to agree with your ruler more and that could potentially lead them to joining you in the future. Officer loyalty is actually more accurately portrayed in this game than it ever likely will be again.

I also don't think it helps you're chances at all to execute an officer's former ruler. I can recall instances of executing rulers and then trying to recruit certain officers and you can tell by their responses that they'll likely never join you. Just execute Liu Bei and then try to hire Zhang Fei and see what he says. :P Sometimes it won't have an effect with certain officers, but it's better to leave the ruler be if you can't get their officers to join you initially and plan on releasing them to try to recruit them later on.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:43 am

rtkemperor wrote:I have always conquered the whole china as prime minister. Never got emperor status from talking to my officer.

My current game PR 100, along with hereditary seal, but it it still not happening yet :cry:

Is there anyway to lower the existing emperor's PR ?


I think a high prestige may affect your chances of becoming Emperor, as the prestige system is all sort of tied into the Han government and how you carry yourself as a supporter to the Emperor. When you have the Han Emperor in your control, take up audience with him and then decline to do whatever he says, this should drop both of your prestige levels. If you have the Imperial Seal, talk with officers who have the "Advance" dream as they are the ones who recommend that you ascend to Emperor. You should be able to get to Emperor in this manner.

arkaeyn: Nice stories. I like to hear what others think of these games and always love to hear of their adventures. Seems you're a hard person to please! :lol:
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Unread postby arkaeyn » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:50 am

Heh. I take the bizarre, hard to please point of view that games based on a books/history should in some way attempt to model what they're based on.

Until I play a ROTK where Cao Cao and Yuan Shao rebel against Dong Zhuo/He Jin, where Liu Bei actually has a chance of going from the northeast to form his own kingdom in the southwest, or Sima Yan ever successfully wins the game....I'm going to be disappointed. These are the crucial plot points of the Three Kingdoms novel, yet the games fail to make them happen.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:05 pm

I disagree as I like the fact that we are given free reign to change the course of Three Kingdoms history in every game and anything can happen. If every game followed the actual course of history, the games would have little replayability and almost no redeeming factors for me.

Interestingly enough, RTK X does include events that can be turned on/off before the game begins. This way, you can select a character and still have all of the events from the Three Kingdoms era happen all around you, shaping the power balance of the land the way that it did in the novel. Personally, I don't like it as it feels like some outside force is meddling in my game and it eliminates the chance of a Han Fu dominant game for example. That is really the only way they can implement events into the series though, as I would be completely disinterested in the game if every scenario just naturally developed the way it did in history, even if you could impact it with your character and possibly change things. I like the complete randomness of every game and the fact that each scenario is set up like it was in history at the beginning, but from there, anything can happen.

Where the RTK X events system fails for me, is that they can't be turned off at a particular point. It's irritating that Cao Cao starts out serving Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu is still with Ding Yuan in the 189 scenario and that if I don't want to play with their silly events on, it's hard to change all of these things as you can only control one character. I suggest you check out RTK X is you haven't, as it's the one game that can play out according to history as you'd like it to, but it's also a solid game for someone like me who likes the Koei concept of "Three Kingdoms free-for-all." :wink:
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Unread postby Ranbir » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:40 pm

I like making my own story.

I don't really see any fascination with watching automatic scenes, duels and battles happen in something I'm supposed to be playing. Surely that's what the tv series was for?

I'm just happy with the events being turned off.

Although, I still prefer the cutscenes in VI. They look the best, I tell ya!
Especially when taking audiences.
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Unread postby arkaeyn » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:15 pm

You misunderstand me. I don't want to be forced into reliving history. I want the possibility for the history to occur to be available. For a historical game to be good, it needs what I call potential historicism. Imagine a World War 2 strategic game where Germany never once invades Russia when controlled by the AI.

Here's what I wrote about it in my blueprint for a better Three Kingdoms game:


The ahistorical nature of the ROTK games is their most important and frustrating aspect. The novel contains two main narrative thrusts: the first half follows the hero, Liu Bei, as he gains a reputation, a castle and city, loses it, joins Cao Cao, leaves Cao Cao, and eventually forms his own empire, on the far side of China. This sequence of events will absolutely never happen in a ROTK game using their engine, for two important reasons. First of all, officers tend not to travel in order to found a new kingdom. Second, and more importantly, no characters ever successfully rebel, or even leave, their lieges. The sequence of events which had Liu Bei defeated by Cao Cao and eventually join him might occur, but then he would never leave and travel south to join Liu Biao, then form his own faction/kingdom at Liu Biao’s death. It simply would not happen.

The second half of the novel, which starts around the time of Liu Bei’s death, focuses on the decline and eventual fall of all of the Three Kingdoms. Shu falls to Wei, Wei falls to Jin, and Jin finally destroys Wu. Jin, the kingdom of the Sima family, grew out of Wei, with the Simas deposing the Caos. The kingdom founded by Cao Cao usually wins in ROTK, but it’s always the Cao family which succeeds, never the Simas. Sima Yan, the emperor who eventually united China – the winner! – will never win a ROTK game, because there are never successful rebellions.

Any Three Kingdoms game that cannot potentially model, without arbitrary triggers, Liu Bei’s travels and eventual successes, and the eventual possible victory of Sima Yan, must be considered a failure.

I propose that any historical strategy game, in order to succeed both historically and as a game, subscribe to a concept of potential historicism. It cannot be literal history, because then the player has no ability to change events, making it a bad game. But it cannot ignore history, otherwise it loses its primary attraction. Historical strategy must have events that COULD have happened in historically – for example, Yuan Shao could have defeated Cao Cao, or Lu Bu could have failed in his assassination of Dong Zhuo. But alternatively, the sequence of events that actually occurred must be conceivably possible, if not probable.
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Unread postby arkaeyn » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:41 pm

Or to put it another way: in history are there certain "rules" and a historical game should follow those rules. To continue the WWII example: The Germans tended to have fewer, more expensive, more advanced tanks than the Russians, who had cheap, mass-produced tanks which weren't as effective 1-on-1, but there were more of them. Whether or not the Nazis conquer Russia, the battles within the game should be organized around that general rule.

Likewise, a very important rule in the Three Kingdoms novel is that highly ambitious officers rebel against lords that they dislike. Liu Bei left Cao Cao, Sima Yan overthrew Wei, and everyone and their mother turned against Dong Zhuo. Whether or not Liu Bei ends up King of Shu, for a Three Kingdoms game to be accurate he, or lords like him, need to rebel, some of them successfully.
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