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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:53 pm

Belfagor wrote:I believe the term you are looking for is foreshadowing.

Foreshadow: v. tr. be a warning or indication of (a future event)

That definition is from my Oxford Desk Dictionary.

Hmm...thanks. :) I always thought foreshadow was something else. :?
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Unread postby Duncan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:22 pm

Seven at One Stroke wrote:Hmm...thanks. :) I always thought foreshadow was something else. :?

I think foreshadow has a slightly sinister connotation, a bit less than foreboding or presage, which are slightly more specific fears or warnings of bad tidings.

Prognostication is one very long word, but I'm sure there is another neutral (ie non-negative) term that is shorter, I just can't think what it is.
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:29 pm

Sun Hua wrote:
Seven at One Stroke wrote:Hmm...thanks. :) I always thought foreshadow was something else. :?

I think foreshadow has a slightly sinister connotation, a bit less than foreboding or presage, which are slightly more specific fears or warnings of bad tidings.

Prognostication is one very long word, but I'm sure there is another neutral (ie non-negative) term that is shorter, I just can't think what it is.

Well...the problem is that I don't really think it so much as to "hint" to a coming event. For example, in the following case:
John walked into the room. Upon seeing him, Joey rose from his armchair, "Ah, thank you for coming. My brother just brought me the letter. Did you see him going out?" "Hmm..." John nodded, "let me see it."

And then chapters later, Joey's brother pops into the story, to apologize for his son breaking the arm off the chair. The mention of Joey's brother doesn't really "hint" at anything; and he could have never shown up again in the story. It's placed there so people won't go "Joey has a brother?" when the brother shows up. Maybe it has to do with the connotation of some "significant events," and my brain's just not thinking the right way.
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Unread postby Belfagor » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:52 am

Sun Hua wrote:
Seven at One Stroke wrote:Hmm...thanks. :) I always thought foreshadow was something else. :?

I think foreshadow has a slightly sinister connotation, a bit less than foreboding or presage, which are slightly more specific fears or warnings of bad tidings.

Prognostication is one very long word, but I'm sure there is another neutral (ie non-negative) term that is shorter, I just can't think what it is.


As far as the word having more sinister connotations, I at least do not associate foreshadowing with bad things happening, though admittedly it does often foretell negative evets. Concerning prognostication, it may not have your sinister connotations but when referring to the occurence in literature, the literary device is called foreshadowing.



Seven at One Stroke wrote:Well...the problem is that I don't really think it so much as to "hint" to a coming event. For example, in the following case:
John walked into the room. Upon seeing him, Joey rose from his armchair, "Ah, thank you for coming. My brother just brought me the letter. Did you see him going out?" "Hmm..." John nodded, "let me see it."

And then chapters later, Joey's brother pops into the story, to apologize for his son breaking the arm off the chair. The mention of Joey's brother doesn't really "hint" at anything; and he could have never shown up again in the story. It's placed there so people won't go "Joey has a brother?" when the brother shows up. Maybe it has to do with the connotation of some "significant events," and my brain's just not thinking the right way.


Hmm... Here's an example from a webpage talking about Macbeth.

Foreshadowing*—Macbeth provides an excellent opportunity for teaching or reinforcing the literary device of foreshadowing.
The witches set the tone in Act I, scene 1 with a storm and predictions that Macbeth's life will become so confused he
will find it difficult to differentiate between right and wrong (fair and foul), and their later predictions foreshadow a
downfall the audience is aware of long before Macbeth is willing to accept their implications. Students can learn how
foreshadowing is used through probing questions. For example: (a) The play opens with thunder and lightning as three
witches enter. What does this tell about the mood of the play? Is this play going to be a tragedy or a comedy? (b) What
do the witches mean when they say, "Fair is foul, and foul is fair" (I,i)? What does this tell you about what is likely to go
on during the play? (c) If you were going to stage this scene, what would your set look like?

That is from http://www.penguinputnam.com/static/pdf ... acbeth.pdf

If that example does not satify what you have in mind Seven at One Stroke, I do not know of any other literary terms that might apply.
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Unread postby lessthanpleased » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:04 am

I've been wracking my brain, 7@1, and I don't think there is a literary term for exactly what you're talking about.

On an extremely cursory level, foreshadowing works, but doesn't actually address that for which you're asking: foreshadowing is used to hint at what is to come at the story.

But you aren't asking about that sort of situation; you're asking for what the literary term is for when authors drop clues as to what's going on without revealing their later implication to the story or even that they are important in the first place.

Foreshadowing, when done well- along with inverse foreshadowing- is often immediately recognizable as something important. Your situation isn't seen as anything other than a trivial bit of information at the time that it is given.

I'll ask some of my friends, or await Kong Wen's input; because if anyone here knows, it is going to be him.

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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:05 pm

Belfagor wrote:As far as the word having more sinister connotations, I at least do not associate foreshadowing with bad things happening, though admittedly it does often foretell negative evets. Concerning prognostication, it may not have your sinister connotations but when referring to the occurence in literature, the literary device is called foreshadowing.

Thanks.

lessthanpleased wrote:On an extremely cursory level, foreshadowing works, but doesn't actually address that for which you're asking: foreshadowing is used to hint at what is to come at the story.

But you aren't asking about that sort of situation; you're asking for what the literary term is for when authors drop clues as to what's going on without revealing their later implication to the story or even that they are important in the first place.

Well...I think that it's not really a "literary device" to produce a certain effect so much as it is a "narrative ploy," and since nobody cares about narration anyways I guess it probably doesn't have a technical name. Maybe it's just "dropping the clues."
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:05 am

You're right 7@1, it's not really a device; it's nothing more than foreshadowing stripped of its symbolic or thematic implications. I would simply call it good/clever writing. It's a way of giving an event a stronger connection with the plot, and it's also a fundamental element in what is known as "encyclopedic writing" as exemplified by people like James Joyce or J.R.R. Tolkien.
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:30 am

Kong Wen wrote:You're right 7@1, it's not really a device; it's nothing more than foreshadowing stripped of its symbolic or thematic implications. I would simply call it good/clever writing. It's a way of giving an event a stronger connection with the plot, and it's also a fundamental element in what is known as "encyclopedic writing" as exemplified by people like James Joyce or J.R.R. Tolkien.

Thanks, I was quite curious about it. The funny thing is that there are three names for it in Chinese, and it is used very often in SGYY (e.g. Zhuge Liang said, "you go and do so and so.") and Dream of Red Chamber, albeit often employed quite crudely. I wonder if this shows that the Chinese are more concerned about narration and the story than its moral/thematic significance?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:36 am

Seven at One Stroke wrote:Thanks, I was quite curious about it. The funny thing is that there are three names for it in Chinese, and it is used very often in SGYY (e.g. Zhuge Liang said, "you go and do so and so.") and Dream of Red Chamber, albeit often employed quite crudely. I wonder if this shows that the Chinese are more concerned about narration and the story than its moral/thematic significance?

That could be one explanation. Another might be that narrative interconnectivity and internal cohesion are taken for granted in Western literature more than in Chinese literature.
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Unread postby Jiang Xun » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:25 pm

Stupid question, how is Senate and People of the New Roman Repulic be translated as?

And how would it be abbreviated?

SPQNR? or SPNQR?
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