Freedom or Equality?

Discuss literature (e.g. books, newspapers), educational studies (getting help or opinions on homework or an essay), and philosophy.

Unread postby Fan Kong » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:45 am

Jia Wenhe wrote:
Taishi Ci wrote:Maybe More Black have commited Violent murders, and more whites have commited lesser degrees like manslaughter?


..... I don't think that's the answer. It has to do with cleaning up the dirt of society, and being given the death penalty by an all white jury, or its always something of that nature.

I would like Fan Kong, to give the reason he is suggesting though.

I'm a little confused by what you are asking of me. Care to clarify or elaborate? I take it you been smoking a little of that ganja? :lol:
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Unread postby Dennis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:50 am

Fan Kong wrote: Ever wonder why there are so many more Blacks on death row when there are more White murderers?


Then this question is rhetorical?
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Unread postby Travis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:57 am

Fan Kong wrote:A murder is a murder. Name one serial killer that was black. Now name one serial killer that was white. Basically, its up to the the judge and lawyers if a murderer goes down for capital punishment or manslaughter. Like most say, it really comes down to how good of a lawyer you can afford. If O.J. was just a regular "black" guy, he would probably be on death row right now.

One of the assistant D.A.'s in SF was recently convicted of stabbing a man for peeing outside his home. He also was convicted of posing as a peace officer as well as some incident involving a 15-year old girl a year earlier. The paper just mentioned that he had an "incident" with a 15 year old girl, the wording lead me to believe it was some kind of assault. Anyways, guess what the judge sentenced him to?

probation.


Yeah your answer seems a bit more feesable than mine. It probably has to do with who is richer.
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Unread postby Fan Kong » Sat Dec 21, 2002 5:25 am

Jia Wenhe wrote: Then this question is rhetorical?

Pretty much :lol: However, I did a quick search on google:

National statistics show blacks are inevitably given the death penalty for killing whites, while white-on-white, white-on-black and black-on-black murders rarely receive the death penalty (Harvey Green, a black who was convicted of killing two whites in the same year that Pitt county reported 11 homicides - including three in which whites killed blacks, was the only defendant whose execution was sought.);
source: http://www.unc.edu/news/newsserv/univ/sep99/pollitt092199.htm

http://www.quixote.org/ej/moratorium_now/broch_race.html

http://www.mobtown.org/news00305.php

I threw in a few more for "effect". :wink:
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Unread postby Travis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:47 pm

Wait a minute look at this, According to this, the percentage of White and Black Murders are nearly the same. about 48% each.

http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/1995/pdf/t410.pdf

Wow White folks commit alot of crime :lol:
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Unread postby Lion's Mane » Sat Dec 21, 2002 9:10 pm

Though that's charged. It never details convictions, which is what a truer issue would be. For example, I could be charged with armed robbery, if I somehow matched a profile sketch.

However, would I be convicted? I'm not the type to assault anyone, as I'm a generally peaceful fellow. Nor do I feel the need to rob a bank, because I don't need to, and I see no point IN robbing a bank, when I know I'd be caught.

I'd be interested in seeing some numbers between charges and convictions, though, if you could find it.
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Unread postby Shi Jing Xu » Sat Dec 21, 2002 9:55 pm

Taishi Ci wrote:My vote is on freedom. Eqaulity is a good Idea, but impractical as not all people are equal. It has failed many time as in Communist Russia, sure the USSR was strong, but they had to build walls to keep people from leaving. Equality would mean things like people getting paid the same no matter what job they have, or people's families being all the same size. I mean would want to go through 8 years of college to be a doctor and get paid the same as a garbage man? and how would a family work if it had to be the same size as some one elses? You abolish it, no families. I mean think about it. Trying to make everyone eqaul won't work. I remember reading a story once where the US tried to make people equal. They had a Department of Equality. There was a family in this story, one was a genius, and everytime he thought to much he would get shocked by a device. I don't remember what the rest of the family had, but they were watching TV. Ballerina's were on it and they had to were weight's and hideous masks to keep them equal to others b/c they were to beautiful and were more agile than most people. I mean it is is simply immpossible to make everyone equal, and if it is, we definately don't want it.

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Unread postby Travis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 10:17 pm

No it wasn't a book It was a short story, Though I don't quite remember the name.
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Unread postby James » Sat Dec 21, 2002 10:40 pm

Wild-Eyes, we are in complete agreement.

Jia Wenhe wrote: That totally sucks and I think it is bogus, but I do believe that some people, most of which are usually minorities, are born into poverty, and its so easy for someone who isn't poor to say that its easy for them.

I know exactly what it means to be poor; I have lived in poverty. This is exactly why my views on this are so strong; I dug myself out exactly because I had to in order to survive (I was living on my own at 17, my attitude had expired my stay at my parents’ home). If the government had paid for me to survive, I don’t think I would have ever been forced to rely on myself in order to make my life livable.

Jia Wenhe wrote: In Vancouver, I have had friends who were at thier families restaurants and had to forsake their education because their parents need their support in order to keep the business running, since they are children, they have no say in the matter. I do not think this is fair, and a lot of mom and pop corner stores are run by minority families with uneducated kids, those kids need a chance to get on their feet a little later in life, and I think they should be granted money for education.

18, or whenever someone becomes an adult, is not too late to gain an education. Also, is it possible that being forced to make a living might actually encourage future generations to place a higher priority on education? Furthermore, I disagree with government aid to people who inflict poverty upon himself or herself. Freedom, in my perfect little world, involves me deciding what to do with my own earnings. I do believe in government aid in the name of education though. A full time student gaining government loans is favorable, as it builds a better tomorrow (in my opinion).

Jia Wenhe wrote: <study clipped>
As you can see even in Ontario the most diverse province in Canada, and one of the most diverse areas in the world, shows extreme prejudice to minorities, I don't see how the minorities in this example are given the same freedom to pursue and oppurtunity as a white person.

Studies concern me, someone who is eager to prove something nearly always starts them, and it isn’t hard to find someone with views that are aligned in favor of something or another, no matter how extreme me. For purposes of this discussion, however, I will assume complete truth in this study.

My question is this. What do you think the alternative approach should be? Who can change this? Who can police it? The only solution for government is to ration the amount of culture that can appear in any given type of jobs, and that is a desecration of freedom. It offers unfair benefits to minority groups, weakens society, and weakens our world’s workforce. At the top of your reply you spoke against this sort of thing, but it also seems to be the only government-induced solution.

Here in the United States you can watch certain cultures come over and waste their time (as a majority), instead introducing crime and segregation. They turn on the majority and blame them for their self-induced problems. I am going to be frank, and I am not going to beat around the bush now. Here in Utah the Asians that come over dedicate their time to education and the English language, they make some of us Americans look like fools and become doctors and lawyers. Yet in places like certain China towns exist Asian gangs are formed and crime begins. Here in Utah there are enough illegal Mexican immigrants to form their very own sub culture. While many of them come to work hard, learn the language, and join as American citizens, there are others who just want to get free money from the government and spend their time in idle predjudice. My theory is that in parts of the US where there aren’t many Mexicans, the vast majority of them are very hard workers, and in some cases put majority culture Americans to shame. What would happen if the government stopped giving free money to the illegal immigrants, stopped allowing them to vote, and started deporting them the moment they are discovered? They couldn’t survive here anymore, they would have to work hard, they would have to fully realize their potential. This would solve so many problems, in my opinion, and even the illegal immigrants would become productive members of American society.

All cultures are equal until the government steps in and favors one of them, that is how I see things.

Jia Wenhe wrote: Also, I am not saying it goes both ways, but the fourth statement saying the request is standard only proves that it happens way too much the one way, because it is usually the white majority keeping the minorities out of work, and perhaps if those minorities could get work, they would rely less on social assistance.

I suspect this isn’t an actual prejudice they start with, but rather something that came about from watching certain minorities do a poor job at work. I blame no culture for this, I blame government aid. If the minority cultures had to go to work doing every bit as much as the majorities, they would be true equals. Because the employer must keep them even if they do poorly though, the situation turns for the negative. The best solution to a problem is not to create or promote a new problem, but rather to undo damage done, even if the results are not immediate. By trying to help minorities with special favors and money, we are in fact hurting them as a sub-culture. (If someone doesn’t understand that statement, please read this thread from the begininning).
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Unread postby Travis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 11:01 pm

:shock: Wow.... Quite profound James, I dunno what to say after that one :shock:
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