Freedom or Equality?

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Unread postby James » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:54 pm

Yeah, that story Taishi Ci told is all too real in the United States. The minority groups are now given so much special treatment that they are turning into the prejudiced haters in many instances, and people still support them when this happens.

If a black man walks up to me and calls me a cracker (or however that is spelled) and I turn to him and call him a n*****, and we are both heard by an officer it is likely something will be done. It is also very likely that I will be prosecuted much more heavily than him simply because I am part of the majority white adult male group.

If he attacks me, and I beat the living crap out of him, I will probably go to jail. If I attack him, and he beats the living crap out of me, he will be gone for maybe a week.

As much as we hate to imagine the possibility that the minority groups we once oppressed are now the haters in many instances, it is becoming the very real truth in many instances. I am not saying that it doesn’t go the other way around, the majority of people in all cultures in the US, I would say, harbor racist feelings, but I don’t want to pretend that it doesn’t go both ways.

This is where equality must be kept in mind. You cannot give special interest groups special treatment they will abuse it in every instance. Even if there are members of that special interest group that won’t abuse it, the majority will. This, we call, “humanity”.

We also see examples of this in the previously mentioned child custody cases, child support (an amazingly female-biased system), employment, abuse, etc. Nearly every special interest group that has been fighting for special rights in the US government for more than a few years enjoys unique benefits that none of the others can receive.

Farmers, for example, enjoy strange benefits like being paid not to grow crops, and receive compensation for any extra crop they grow that does not sell. You can probably imagine the damage this can do. Even more the problem, in this instance, is the fact that over 60% of the agricultural aid our government provides goes to the wealthiest agriculture companies… the people that do not need government assistance.

Next time you meet a homeless person, or someone in government housing, ask them if they would like to have their own home, in their name, with a great APR and low payments. Explain how it would help with taxes. You may be surprised at how often they would flat out say they aren’t interested. By providing exceptional benefits to special interest groups you only provide them with an incentive to remain a minority and to preserve their problems.

I’ll shut up again, for the time being.
I welcome anyone else into this interesting debate; I hope to learn a lot from it.
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Unread postby Rhiannon » Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:24 pm

I believe the Law should be based on equality but the Government (thus, Society) on freedom.

The Law should be blind. That means gender-neutral, race-neutral, religion neutral, etc. You've all mentioned things like child support and affirmative action...things which should be treated neutrally but they aren't, by the law. The Law should be expected to treat everyone equally -- NOT to give them an equal foot in society, but to give them equal justice.

The Government (and thus its society) should be individualistic. Personal responsibility and determination should be enforced. Currently, the US government tries to give everyone an equal foot in society -- equal opportunity. I don't feel that's necessary; we've become a society that devalues responsibility, charity, and compassion for that very reason. I believe that the only thing the government should be providing "equal opportunity" for is health care and disaster relief -- both which are out of a person's control.

Racism, sexism, and prejudice have and always will exist in the world's society. I think that the world has learned, for the most part, that such attitudes are not healthy at any level; those who haven't learned such shouldn't be forced to believe otherwise (only to obey the law as everyone else). By making laws on people's beliefs and attitudes, we devalue the ideal of equality because we force it -- just as welfare devalues the ideal of compassion.

We can't have equality and freedom both; nor can we have either one in its entireity. Shouldn't personal value be more important than being handed your opportunities by the government?
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Unread postby Dennis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:17 am

I am not going to argue against the point that some minorities abuse government regulations that favour them, it happens in Canada too, I assure you, for instance UBC has a race and gender quota where a maximum of 5 white males can enter med-school a year in spite of their grades.

That totally sucks and I think it is bogus, but I do believe that some people, most of which are usually minorities, are born into poverty, and its so easy for someone who isn't poor to say that its easy for them.

In Vancouver, I have had friends who were at thier families restaurants and had to forsake their education because their parents need their support in order to keep the business running, since they are children, they have no say in the matter. I do not think this is fair, and a lot of mom and pop corner stores are run by minority families with uneducated kids, those kids need a chance to get on their feet a little later in life, and I think they should be granted money for education.

To Taishi Ci, and James: A survery was taken in a book: Sociology in our Times, and it was taken in Toronto the city that is considered the largest melting pot in N. America next to New York City.

Institutionalized Racism

In 1991, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) examined institutionalized discrimination in employment agencies. The CCLA randomly selected agencies in four cities in Ontario and asked whether the agencies would agree to refer only white people for the jobs that needed to be filled. Eleven of fifteen agencies agreed to accept discriminatory job orders. The following are exampled of agencies responses:

1. "It is discrimination, but it can be done discreetly without anyone knowing. No problem with that."

2. "That's not problem. It's between yoiu and me. I don't tell anyone, you don't tell anyone."

3. "You are paying to see the people you want to see."

4. Absolutely---definintely ... that request is pretty standard."

As you can see even in Ontario the most diverse province in Canada, and one of the most diverse areas in the world, shows extreme prejudice to minorities, I don't see how the minorities in this example are given the same freedom to pursue and oppurtunity as a white person.

Also, I am not saying it goes both ways, but the fourth statement saying the request is standard only proves that it happens way too much the one way, because it is usually the white majority keeping the minorities out of work, and perhaps if those minorities could get work, they would rely less on social assistance.
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Unread postby Jonathan » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:43 am

This goes back to my belief about segregation, the reason why equality is not achieved is because of the people, not the government. When a black prefers to be called a “n*gger” by his own kind, and even on occasions by other races, he encourages his own racisms, not to just himself, but to his own culture. This also occurs in the music industry and television, shows are created to attract certain races, and not just people. Sex in the City is my next example; the show is intended for the female audience. With its representations of men and of women, its got penis hater written all over it. Have you ever seen a women get a good man in the show? No because if they did they would be sending the message that men are good, and of course in the mystical world of sex and the city, they aren’t. Men do the same thing of course, with their players t-shirts and masculine attitude.

Equality cannot exist because these are things that will only change if people decide to change, the reality is that women have rights, but some of them are still trying to be the next Susan B. Anthony anyways, and men are masculine, but some of them push it to an extreme, and blacks aren’t still in segregation, some of them just aren’t letting go of the past, and are trying to receive forgiveness from something that happened over 150 years ago.

Freedom is the way to go in the world, that’s something truly beautiful, when you meet people and the majority of them are struggling to accomplish their own dreams. There should be no equality for those who do nothing with it, there should be a fight to gain what you feel you deserve. Best man or women for the job, whether they are black blue pink or purple.
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Unread postby Xiao Gui » Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:44 am

Funny, the arguement on freedom and equality has turned into jobs inequality and racism. :lol:

Nevertheless, this is my view on racism. First, it does exist and exists in North America. I don't think anyone would disagree. Second, no matter how undiscriminative we are, we still carry some prejudice. Since everyone has prejudice, there bound to be some discrimination. Thus, the lives of both the majority and the minority are affected by it.
Freedom and equality has nothing to do with racism or sexism.

Equality to protect against racism IS racism itself. Freedom of all regulations ensuring that equality would also perpetuate racism. I don't think we should use freedom and equality to address the problem of racism.

Now, can we go back to the original topic? I have plenty to say. :wink:
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Unread postby Travis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:56 am

The arguement kinda started when some one jumped in and starting saying minorities aren't "Free" because of Racial Boundries and discrimination. Thus it kinda got off track :lol: Yeah lets drop this and get back on track.
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Unread postby Fan Kong » Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:04 am

James wrote:Yeah, that story Taishi Ci told is all too real in the United States. The minority groups are now given so much special treatment that they are turning into the prejudiced haters in many instances, and people still support them when this happens.

If a black man walks up to me and calls me a cracker (or however that is spelled) and I turn to him and call him a n*****, and we are both heard by an officer it is likely something will be done. It is also very likely that I will be prosecuted much more heavily than him simply because I am part of the majority white adult male group.

If he attacks me, and I beat the living crap out of him, I will probably go to jail. If I attack him, and he beats the living crap out of me, he will be gone for maybe a week.

I agree with everything you said up until your last statement about going to jail.......the truth is actually the reverse. Ever wonder why there are so many more Blacks on death row when there are more White murderers?
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Unread postby Travis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:02 am

Maybe More Black have commited Violent murders, and more whites have commited lesser degrees like manslaughter?
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Unread postby Fan Kong » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:42 am

A murder is a murder. Name one serial killer that was black. Now name one serial killer that was white. Basically, its up to the the judge and lawyers if a murderer goes down for capital punishment or manslaughter. Like most say, it really comes down to how good of a lawyer you can afford. If O.J. was just a regular "black" guy, he would probably be on death row right now.

One of the assistant D.A.'s in SF was recently convicted of stabbing a man for peeing outside his home. He also was convicted of posing as a peace officer as well as some incident involving a 15-year old girl a year earlier. The paper just mentioned that he had an "incident" with a 15 year old girl, the wording lead me to believe it was some kind of assault. Anyways, guess what the judge sentenced him to?

probation.
Last edited by Fan Kong on Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Dennis » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:43 am

Taishi Ci wrote:Maybe More Black have commited Violent murders, and more whites have commited lesser degrees like manslaughter?


..... I don't think that's the answer. It has to do with cleaning up the dirt of society, and being given the death penalty by an all white jury, or its always something of that nature.

I would like Fan Kong, to give the reason he is suggesting though.
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