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Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:11 pm
by Kongde
Sun Fin wrote:
Kongde wrote:
Thanks for the great references again. What a shame that no such book exists to fill the Jin-Southern Song void. Perhaps this is something I should look into doing myself. I am certainly by no stretch of the means an ingenious writer and absolutely will never reach the level of depth that Luo Guanzhong has in his literature, but I can certainly strive to make an attempt at a well told story for a time period that seems ever so neglected, with the ultimate purpose being to continue where ROTK left off.

Unfortunately, at the moment I am quite ill informed of the history and people of the mid Jin and beyond era, so this would take an enormous amount of research on my end to even begin to start writing it. However... if, in all that time, a book of my description does not pop up, I will strongly consider writing it myself for my own satisfaction. Should anyone else be interested in that venture, I may write it here in this forum in chapters.

I wonder how such a book would fare.


Honestly, I think you would struggle to find a large audience for it, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile! :)

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:It seems not. That's a bit of a shame... :(


Gutted :(


I was attempting to find where to read the full text online but am only able to see a small description of it.

Linky

As far as audience goes, I'm certainly not expecting a large audience, especially in this forum. However, i also know many are here exclusively for the Three Kingdoms/Han period and could care less for Jin and beyond.

I may consider seriously writing chapters and posting them here a chapter at a time in the future. Do not expect that to be soon though. But, perhaps it can be a fun story to look forward to.

I would like to imagine that there are more Primary sources to look at from Jin than Three Kingdoms. Perhaps I am wrong in this assumption?

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:39 pm
by Sun Fin
I would love you to write a story. I'd read it :).

I'm not sure, I've not ever looked into Jin sources. DaoLun and Jia Nanfeng know more about that than me!

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:29 pm
by DaoLunOfShiji
Jin was mentioned and so I was summoned!

1: They're evil bastards who betrayed the Cao!

2: As for sources, the primary one would be the Jinshu which BookOfJin is working on translating over on tumblr
https://bookofjin.tumblr.com/,
There's also the portion of the ZZTJ as it pertains to Jin here on SOSZ in two parts viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24289 and viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24018
There's also things like the Shishuo Xinyu, though this is a source you should take with many, many grains of salt. It is less of an account of the time, and more of the view the 5th century had of the 3rd and 4th.

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:37 pm
by Sun Fin
How about books by modern historians?

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:28 pm
by DaoLunOfShiji
Modern, hm? Well there are some things I have
Xun Xu and the Politics of Precision in Third-Century AD China By Howard L. Goodman
On the composition of Zhang Hua's "Nushi Zhen" by Michael J. Farmer
The Last Word? Lu Yun's "Nanzheng Fu" by Sujane Wu,
Naturalness and Authenticity: The Poetry of Tao Qian by Yim-tze Kwong,
Rewriting a Recluse: The Early Biographers' Construction of Tao Yuanming by Wendy Swartz
From Spirited Youth to Loyal Official: Life Writing and Didacticism in the Jin shu Biography of Wang Dao by Matthew V. Wells
Wei-Jin Sacrificial Ballets: Reform versus Conservation by Kevin A. Jensen

This is Wei-Jin transition pieces, poetry studies, Western Jin and Eastern Jin related works.

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:05 am
by Kongde
Sun Fin wrote:I would love you to write a story. I'd read it :).

I'm not sure, I've not ever looked into Jin sources. DaoLun and Jia Nanfeng know more about that than me!

I'll do my best to make it a reality at some point!

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Jin was mentioned and so I was summoned!

1: They're evil bastards who betrayed the Cao!

2: As for sources, the primary one would be the Jinshu which BookOfJin is working on translating over on tumblr
https://bookofjin.tumblr.com/,
There's also the portion of the ZZTJ as it pertains to Jin here on SOSZ in two parts viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24289 and viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24018
There's also things like the Shishuo Xinyu, though this is a source you should take with many, many grains of salt. It is less of an account of the time, and more of the view the 5th century had of the 3rd and 4th.


Haha, I must agree with point one, but one still must acknowledge that the Sima's were indeed crazy talented as an entire family with few exceptions. There is a reason the house of Sima ruled in the end! Though I still wish it had been Wei myself as the Cao's were quite bright as well, and Cao Rui is especially underappreciated for his progressiveness and bright mind.

Thanks for the resources, it's so very nice there are people out there who are willing to translate for us monolingual sapiens. One day when I have the motivation and determination to do so, I'll have to actually learn Chinese. I'll be sure to be careful around those types of resources, though as I am going an ROTK-style route, perhaps these types of sources would actually be most beneficial, especially for ideas.

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Modern, hm? Well there are some things I have
Xun Xu and the Politics of Precision in Third-Century AD China By Howard L. Goodman
On the composition of Zhang Hua's "Nushi Zhen" by Michael J. Farmer
The Last Word? Lu Yun's "Nanzheng Fu" by Sujane Wu,
Naturalness and Authenticity: The Poetry of Tao Qian by Yim-tze Kwong,
Rewriting a Recluse: The Early Biographers' Construction of Tao Yuanming by Wendy Swartz
From Spirited Youth to Loyal Official: Life Writing and Didacticism in the Jin shu Biography of Wang Dao by Matthew V. Wells
Wei-Jin Sacrificial Ballets: Reform versus Conservation by Kevin A. Jensen

This is Wei-Jin transition pieces, poetry studies, Western Jin and Eastern Jin related works.


This is all great, now I have a ton of reading to begin on!

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:15 pm
by Jia Nanfeng
Sun Fin wrote:I would love you to write a story. I'd read it :).

I'm not sure, I've not ever looked into Jin sources. DaoLun and Jia Nanfeng know more about that than me!

DaoLun has said pretty much everything I was going to! Except for the evil bastards part...

I usually recommend our own Taishi Ci’s ZZTJ translation as the kickoff to Jin studies, followed by “On the composition of Zhang Hua's "Nushi Zhen"” by Michael J. Farmer so you can counter the brainwashing of the freakin’ traitorous Yangs.

“Xun Xu and the Politics of Precision in Third-Century AD China” by Howard L. Goodman is a must for Jin students. But its depth is extremely daunting — I recommend reading the narrative accounts (like the ZZTJ) before taking this dive, but it’s required reading, especially if you plan to write a novel of the era.

To add to DaoLun’s list:

- “The Accession of Sima Yan, AD 265: Legitimation by Ritual Replication” by Carl Leban

- For a relatively “recent” retrospective: “An Eleventh-Century View of Chinese Ethnic Policy: Sima Guang on the Fall of Western Jin” by Mark Strange.

- “Wet Nurses in Early Imperial China” by Jen-Der Lee. The majority of this article refers to the account of Jia Nanfeng’s wet nurse to paint a picture of Jin palace life for caretakers of the girls of royalty. Plus the discussed epitaph is one of the few primary sources that exposes the freakin’ traitorous Yangs.

There’s also a heckload of anecdotal accounts from this era (the zhiguai genre), in addition to the Shishuo Xinyu mentioned by DaoLun, that — while obviously questionable in truthfulness — can help illustrate the culture and religion of the time. These anecdotes are often supernatural and as such may be of great use for a ROTK-esque story. I can recommend many if this interests you!

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:31 pm
by DaoLunOfShiji
Jia Nanfeng wrote:DaoLun has said pretty much everything I was going to! Except for the evil bastards part...


Give it time, I'll win you over to the right side of history! :lol:

Jia Nanfeng wrote:I usually recommend our own Taishi Ci’s ZZTJ translation as the kickoff to Jin studies, followed by “On the composition of Zhang Hua's "Nushi Zhen"” by Michael J. Farmer so you can counter the brainwashing of the freakin’ traitorous Yangs.

“Xun Xu and the Politics of Precision in Third-Century AD China” by Howard L. Goodman is a must for Jin students. But its depth is extremely daunting — I recommend reading the narrative accounts (like the ZZTJ) before taking this dive, but it’s required reading, especially if you plan to write a novel of the era.

To add to DaoLun’s list:

- “The Accession of Sima Yan, AD 265: Legitimation by Ritual Replication” by Carl Leban

- For a relatively “recent” retrospective: “An Eleventh-Century View of Chinese Ethnic Policy: Sima Guang on the Fall of Western Jin” by Mark Strange.

- “Wet Nurses in Early Imperial China” by Jen-Der Lee. The majority of this article refers to the account of Jia Nanfeng’s wet nurse to paint a picture of Jin palace life for caretakers of the girls of royalty. Plus the discussed epitaph is one of the few primary sources that exposes the freakin’ traitorous Yangs.

There’s also a heckload of anecdotal accounts from this era (the zhiguai genre), in addition to the Shishuo Xinyu mentioned by DaoLun, that — while obviously questionable in truthfulness — can help illustrate the culture and religion of the time. These anecdotes are often supernatural and as such may be of great use for a ROTK-esque story. I can recommend many if this interests you!


100% agreed with reading certain material to see the opposing views brought on by the Yang clan which certainly taints early Jin. I actually own all of these, other than the Mark Strange one on Sima Guang. I'll have to grab that! Very good recommendations, and I agree with you on the Shishuo Xinyu. While I don't use it as a historical source, it's a great for a grasp of the culture and their views.

Re: Book recommendations

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:18 pm
by WeiWenDi
DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Modern, hm? Well there are some things I have
Xun Xu and the Politics of Precision in Third-Century AD China By Howard L. Goodman
On the composition of Zhang Hua's "Nushi Zhen" by Michael J. Farmer
The Last Word? Lu Yun's "Nanzheng Fu" by Sujane Wu,
Naturalness and Authenticity: The Poetry of Tao Qian by Yim-tze Kwong,
Rewriting a Recluse: The Early Biographers' Construction of Tao Yuanming by Wendy Swartz
From Spirited Youth to Loyal Official: Life Writing and Didacticism in the Jin shu Biography of Wang Dao by Matthew V. Wells
Wei-Jin Sacrificial Ballets: Reform versus Conservation by Kevin A. Jensen

This is Wei-Jin transition pieces, poetry studies, Western Jin and Eastern Jin related works.


Xun Xu and the Politics of Precision is an excellent and exhaustively-researched book, if I'm remembering right. It's also really dense. I remember posting a multi-part review of that book from back when I was in Luoyang.