Theological perspective quiz

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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:11 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:You Scored asHoliness/Wesleyan Evangelical
For the record, I actually believe that Yahusha/Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah (have my whole life, as I was taught). Also, I do read the whole 'Torah' which whenever I say it I may be referring to either the first 5 books, the first half (Brit Rishon), or the full scriptures (I may have given misleading messages but, Torah means instructions - not Law). Yahusha/Jesus, after all, was mimicking the words of Moses and the prophets. He put a complete meaning to the message that was originally given - something He himself stated.

My wife was a Christian when I met her and I did go to church with her for about 3 years near the beginning of our marriage. So I'm familiar, very familiar with Christianity. My time served as a Rebbe allowed me to have different debates, mostly with Christians, regarding the faiths.


As I suspected we both got the same tradition.

Ah, so you are a Messanic Jew, as far as I can tell the only difference between you and a mainstream Christian is your nod to your Jewish heritage and so staying part of the wider Jewish movement. Explains alot :lol:.

dan99990 wrote: Pretty much what I expected. I'm an ex-Catholic, and I tend to think that a personal relationship with God (along with moral living) is really what counts. Not a specific Church's dogma. I just have a hard time believing that a God who created all humanity would judge people based on their religious practices. How is a person's theology- or lack thereof- more important than the actions they take?

Just my two cents.


Just too add on to WWD's reply to this...

I very much believe in Justification by Faith not by action. No-one can live up to God's standard so instead it is only br grace that we can reach heaven. However when you open yourself up to the Holy Spirit and Jesus, so you've been justified by your faith, then your life and actions will reflect it. But faith comes first and actions come second.
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:46 pm

Sun Fin wrote:As I suspected we both got the same tradition.


Apparently. :wink: :mrgreen:

Ah, so you are a Messanic Jew, as far as I can tell the only difference between you and a mainstream Christian is your nod to your Jewish heritage and so staying part of the wider Jewish movement. Explains a lot
:lol:.


I'd say yes and no, but the explanation itself would be long. My family wouldn't necessarily fall under Messianic Judaism as some of those groups still show honor to the Talmud, whereas we don't. I'd say I would be closer classified as a Messianic Qaraite. But then again, the one thing that separates myself from being a Qaraim is my belief in Yahusha.

I very much believe in Justification by Faith not by action. No-one can live up to God's standard so instead it is only by grace that we can reach heaven. However when you open yourself up to the Holy Spirit and Jesus, so you've been justified by your faith, then your life and actions will reflect it. But faith comes first and actions come second.


That's funny because I didn't favor that answer.

While one can live by grace, we still must strive to be qadosh (holy) as He is such. James and Paul both proposed the best examples that one could give regarding faith and actions. That is of course, depending on what one calls actions or works. One must perform the deeds (works) of the righteous and in turn one would be showing his faith through his works. Abraham was one such example when he by faith performed the action of leaving his fathers land and then later on willingly placing his son on the sacrificial altar upon G-D's request.

Grace is not something new either (meaning with Yahusha/Jesus). In fact, the word for grace in Hebrew, Chesed, was just translated into another word in the Brit Rishon (Old Testament) -- namely kindness or mercy. It has always been around but just at the discretion of G-D. That's most of the difference. It was harder to obtain.

Per the scriptures, faith and actions compliment each other. But one must earnestly be doing both complimentary to each other for it to matter. This is further explained by examining the fact that one's faith will be tested throughout the duration of their life -- in this way they would be put to task to perform certain deeds that reflect upon their faith.

I believe the actions you may be referring to, however, is those that are spontaneous or impulsive in nature. By this one is simply doing the deed to gain 'deeds' or 'holy points'.
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:53 pm

I would argue that once you have repented and accepted Jesus in to your life by the very nature of repenting of your sinful life you begin to become 'Holy'. I'm not saying that over night suddenly all your bad habits vanish, but when you love God absolutely and have genuinely repented of your sins then you would strive to live in as 'Holy' way as possible because you wish to follow 'The Greatest Commandment': 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind'.

Therefore I would argue that Justification by Faith comes first as then, after the grace, you become holier.
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:26 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I would argue that once you have repented and accepted Jesus in to your life by the very nature of repenting of your sinful life you begin to become 'Holy'. I'm not saying that over night suddenly all your bad habits vanish, but when you love God absolutely and have genuinely repented of your sins then you would strive to live in as 'Holy' way as possible because you wish to follow 'The Greatest Commandment': 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind'.


You're agreeing with me here in saying that 'then you would strive to live in as 'Holy' way as possible...'.

As for the rest, that would be true if one could actually be 'qadosh' but, throughout the scriptures it states otherwise - the living can't obtain such a status before G-D. You strive to obtain a goal that no man actually reaches. That is also why Yahusha said that 'he that endures to the end'. If one became 'holy' just because of a belief then there would be no need for task, no need for test, and no need for obedience. But given the fact that we all fall short, we fall short because we must always stay within the chesed, grace, of G-D. In other words, no one is 'holy' but we are called to live life's of righteousness in YHUH M'Qaddosh (His Holiness) (I believe referenced in Leviticus, sorry I'm trying to post and cook dinner at the same time).

I love that part of the 'Shma' but, saying and believing something does not go without testing. Salvation doesn't come by belief but continuing in that belief until the end. Whether that be your life or the world itself. This fits perfectly with the prophecies in the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, Matthew, & John.

Therefore I would argue that Justification by Faith comes first as then, after the grace, you become holier.


You become holier because of your faith and grace? Before I retort, I'd ask what do you mean by this?

One has to rely on what I call the three necessities -- love, obedience, & faith. One has to live according to each of the three to become more righteous and live in G-D's qadosh, holiness. As it is written, only YHUH/God is qadosh. I believe the word used is 'good' but it is referring to 'qadosh'. I'd say it's more appropriate to say -- Justification by Love, Obedience, & Faith. That would agree with everything that was prophesied in Isaiah and what Yahusha/Jesus himself taught.
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:09 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:As for the rest, that would be true if one could actually be 'qadosh' but, throughout the scriptures it states otherwise - the living can't obtain such a status before G-D. You strive to obtain a goal that no man actually reaches. That is also why Yahusha said that 'he that endures to the end'. If one became 'holy' just because of a belief then there would be no need for task, no need for test, and no need for obedience. But given the fact that we all fall short, we fall short because we must always stay within the chesed, grace, of G-D. In other words, no one is 'holy' but we are called to live life's of righteousness in YHUH M'Qaddosh (His Holiness) (I believe referenced in Leviticus, sorry I'm trying to post and cook dinner at the same time).


I'm not sure I agree with your intepretation of what I'm saying. What I mean is that when you accept God in to your life you do so because you recognise your sinfulnes and because you love God and want to improve your life. Therefore this leads you to strive for Holiness. Clearly it is unreachable as otherwise there would be no need for grace.


Zhuanyong wrote:
Therefore I would argue that Justification by Faith comes first as then, after the grace, you become holier.


You become holier because of your faith and grace? Before I retort, I'd ask what do you mean by this?


I am not talking of our own grace. I am saying that because we are justified by faith (which can only occur because of God's grace) we are only justified when we love God and try to live for him. Therefore we strive for holiness. That we cannot succeed which is why we need God's grace. However we try because we love God and because of our faith. After we are justified by our faith we then strive to become more holy.
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:37 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I'm not sure I agree with your intepretation of what I'm saying. What I mean is that when you accept God in to your life you do so because you recognise your sinfulnes and because you love God and want to improve your life. Therefore this leads you to strive for Holiness. Clearly it is unreachable as otherwise there would be no need for grace.


Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying, or I needed clarification.

This statement, I agree with. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by 'and want to improve your life'. If it's stand alone then I don't agree with it; but, if you mean this as in someone seeking a relationship with YHUH and then inherently improving their life then I definitely agree.

I am not talking of our own grace. I am saying that because we are justified by faith (which can only occur because of God's grace) we are only justified when we love God and try to live for him. Therefore we strive for holiness. That we cannot succeed which is why we need God's grace. However we try because we love God and because of our faith. After we are justified by our faith we then strive to become more holy.


I wasn't referring to one's own grace. The 'your' was only in reference to 'faith'.

I agree with what you are saying here. With exception, I still suggest that we are justified by more than just faith - including love and obedience per my previous post. The only thing I don't agree with is 'to become more holy', or at least how you are wording it. No man or woman can actually be holy as we can only obtain His qadosh (holy, set-apart) presence - such as the imparting of the set-apart spirit. In other words, attempting to mimic rather than actually being. I think you mean this but, not sure.

I've certainly enjoyed this conversation. Perhaps talking about faith and beliefs can be done in a civilized manner on forums after all (speaking on prior experience). I definitely enjoy conversing with you. :D
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:38 am

Sun Fin wrote:I would argue that once you have repented and accepted Jesus in to your life by the very nature of repenting of your sinful life you begin to become 'Holy'. I'm not saying that over night suddenly all your bad habits vanish, but when you love God absolutely and have genuinely repented of your sins then you would strive to live in as 'Holy' way as possible because you wish to follow 'The Greatest Commandment': 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind'.

Therefore I would argue that Justification by Faith comes first as then, after the grace, you become holier.


I don't think faith alone is a means of justification. First off, faith isn't something you think once, or say once, or do once and then you have it. It isn't a secret handshake or a magic password. The way I've tended to think of it is as a disposition you build and continually work on. Second, it is indeed one of the three theological virtues from which all other virtues flow, but it is placed alongside hope and love; the greatest virtue of which is not faith but love. As St Paul himself said in 1 Corinthians: 'if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing'.

So there are things we can strive for by God's grace; faith is one of them. It is an important one of them. But without a spirit enlivened by generosity, charity and the thirst for justice, by a love for God just over the horizon, faith in that God is meaningless.

Ultimately, I think I'm in agreement with Zhuanyong when he says this:

Zhuanyong wrote:One has to rely on what I call the three necessities -- love, obedience, & faith. One has to live according to each of the three to become more righteous and live in G-D's qadosh, holiness. As it is written, only YHUH/God is qadosh. I believe the word used is 'good' but it is referring to 'qadosh'. I'd say it's more appropriate to say -- Justification by Love, Obedience, & Faith. That would agree with everything that was prophesied in Isaiah and what Yahusha/Jesus himself taught.
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:21 am

Surprise surprise.

You Scored as Roman Catholic

You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you.

Roman Catholic
96%
Emergent/Postmodern
64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
54%
Neo orthodox
54%
Classical Liberal
46%
Modern Liberal
46%
Charismatic/Pentecostal
36%
Reformed Evangelical
14%
Fundamentalist
7%


What's the "definition", if any, for "neo orthodox"?
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:11 am

Haha! I'm quite relieved to find that I'm only 3% less Catholic than an actual Roman Catholic. 8-)

Lady Wu wrote:What's the "definition", if any, for "neo orthodox"?


The definition is pretty fast-and-loose; I've heard it applied to theologians as diverse as Rick Warren and Jeremiah Wright. In general, though, it refers to theologies which have been influenced to a greater or lesser degree by the confessional and existentialist theologies of Swiss Calvinist theologian Karl Barth. From what I am given to understand, among European theologians there is a greater tendency to view Karl Barth as more of a pissed-off modern liberal than as the founder of an alter-liberal theological movement.

The characteristics of neo-orthodoxy are an insistence on the importance of the psychological state of the individual believer in relation to Scripture, a confessional approach to creed and doctrine and an emphasis on the centrality of the person of Christ as God's revelation (as opposed to Scripture), and compatibilism between the hard sciences (read: geology and evolutionary biology) and religion (thus placing them in further opposition to fundamentalism).
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Re: Theological perspective quiz

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:40 am

Zhuanyong wrote:This statement, I agree with. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by 'and want to improve your life'. If it's stand alone then I don't agree with it; but, if you mean this as in someone seeking a relationship with YHUH and then inherently improving their life then I definitely agree.


We agree.


Zhuanyong wrote:I agree with what you are saying here. With exception, I still suggest that we are justified by more than just faith - including love and obedience per my previous post. The only thing I don't agree with is 'to become more holy', or at least how you are wording it. No man or woman can actually be holy as we can only obtain His qadosh (holy, set-apart) presence - such as the imparting of the set-apart spirit. In other words, attempting to mimic rather than actually being. I think you mean this but, not sure.


Yeah clusmly phrasing on my part.

Zhuanyong wrote:I've certainly enjoyed this conversation. Perhaps talking about faith and beliefs can be done in a civilized manner on forums after all (speaking on prior experience). I definitely enjoy conversing with you. :D


Its easier when the two conversing are of the same religion, I've often found disucssions with you and WWD on the topic to be very through provoking.

I'll reply to WWD later :).
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