Creationism/Evolution Debate

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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby Shozuhn » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:59 am

Me!!
He's the one throwing out insults about magical elves and lack of critical thinking instead of actually refuting my points. Yet I get a warning and you say nothing to him... clearly a very bias moderator. I notice you edit out the part where I quote his insults that lead to my response...
I mean, I can bring up that science can't explain all the complexities of this world and the people in it... and that perhaps belief in God can explain these things... get insulted for saying his... call the person rude for insulting me... and I get a warning and told to apologize...
So why would I owe him an apology? He owes me one first.
I believe you owe one now too.
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:26 am

Saying magical elves is not an insult, you find it insulting because it challenges your beliefs, he has not once called you names or anything and you haven't got a Warning otherwise I would have PMed you with an official Warning, instead I asked you not to call someone Jerk because he is challenging your beliefs!!

The reason I did it informally his time is because I know religious debates can get heated and I understand that!!

However, there is no proof that God exists and there is no proof that Magical Elves exist but both exist in books and mythology so comparing the two is not an insult!!
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby Shozuhn » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:52 am

SunXia wrote:However, there is no proof that God exists and there is no proof that Magical Elves exist but both exist in books and mythology so comparing the two is not an insult!!


I can tell from this quote that your mind is completely closed to any evidence that could even be presented; such as my stating that science can not explain everything. You have to take on faith the idea that man could evolve all the way from a single celled organism into what it is today without any external influence. Man can not observe it happening, nor can we fully explain it happening. So atheists are taking everything on faith as well.
So that makes the "debate" pointless. I'll just instead stay off this thread.
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:19 am

I have admitted that if someone gives me proof that a God exists, proof outside of a book written by man, then sure that will be fine but you don't have any proof otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion!!

I also don't claim to know the Origin of Life, I'm quite fine with saying "I don't know" but I am not comfortable with saying "I don't know so that book must be true"!!

I do know that evolution has been observed and evidence of it is shown in the Earth's history and in the fossils dug up around the world!! There is more evidence for Evolution than there is for "God put it there"!! There is more evidence for the Big Bang being observed everyday by Astrologists than there is for "God created the universe"!!

The Bible was written by man, not God and has been translated man times by man, not by God!! I am not comfortable taking one book and claiming it over Narnia or Tolkien or the Book of the Dead or many others books, to be truth and divine because in the end, all men are imperfect!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:12 am

Shozuhn wrote:"Magical Elves"?
"Lack of critical thinking"?
Now you're just trying to be a rude jerk. I think I'll just ignore your posts from now on. You're clearly the type that just looks down your nose at anyone who believes in God. No point in even trying to talk to you further...


Yes, magical elves. I see little difference in seeing something yet explained and jumping to the illogical conclusion that it must have been designed by X entity. You can place God, Magical Elves, Thor, whoever you wish into X but the theory remains as unimaginative and irrational as ever. It displays a lack of critical thinking. That isn't an ad hominem attack, that is a critique on the idea. If you have trouble distinguishing the two, then I'm sorry to have offended you but it is how it is.

As for 'looking down by nose at anyone who believes in God', SunXia is correct. I have no qualms with theists, as I am one myself. It doesn't mean beliefs and thinking are immune to criticism.


Shozuhn wrote:
I'm not crazy enough to deny evolution, there is plenty of evidence. However, to think that life could go from single celled organisms to the advanced human body we have today; complete with a extremely complex thought process; without some form of divine guidance, just doesn't seem possible to me. So for saying this, I get jokes about magical elves and told I lack critical thinking. Can you explain the process of single cell organisms turning into humans thru evolution however? if so, I await the reply. If not... you owe me an apology.


Can I explain to you the entirety of how single cell organisms followed their evolutionary path to multicell organisms? I'd be terrible at explaining the selection process, but the info is certainly available. However, that isn't so distressing to me. To me what is distressing is the fallacious thinking involved in such an ultimatum.

Is that what your basis in intelligent design is truly based on? That science can't yet explain X to you so it must be done by magical elves? If so, I think you're perpetually on the losing side of that argument. As science continues to explain, rationally and empirically, why X happened we continue to pull back the curtain on how those magical elves didn't magically do X. You will be the owner of a consistently shrinking domain of 'well how does this work! you cant explain it! so elves did it!'. We didn't understand, scientifically, why many things happened 100 years ago. Now we understand much more. In 100 years, we'll understand more. Have fun with that sinking ship.

Also, you can't acknowledge a joke and then demand an apology.

Shozuhn wrote:Me!!
He's the one throwing out insults about magical elves and lack of critical thinking instead of actually refuting my points. Yet I get a warning and you say nothing to him... clearly a very bias moderator. I notice you edit out the part where I quote his insults that lead to my response...


Is this 'mom he hit me first?'. I didn't insult you, and if you were offended, I'm sorry. Either way, I don't get this thinking.

I mean, I can bring up that science can't explain all the complexities of this world and the people in it... and that perhaps belief in God can explain these things... get insulted for saying his... call the person rude for insulting me... and I get a warning and told to apologize...
So why would I owe him an apology?


You didn't get insulted. You had your ideas criticized. That isn't personal. I'd suggest if you're not comfortable with having your views thrashed then a conversation about God on the internet probably isn't the best environment for you.

He owes me one first.
I believe you owe one now too.


:lol: He demands alot. Let me know how that goes.


Shozuhn wrote:
I can tell from this quote that your mind is completely closed to any evidence that could even be presented; such as my stating that science can not explain everything.



I don't think you understand what evidence is. Evidence is data/things presented in support of an idea. As you've previously stated, no more than 4 posts ago, there is a huge body of evidence supporting evolution. Your 'evidence' isn't evidence, you're simply pointing at huge mosaic and saying 'well how does this part work!'. Science will explain everything, on a long enough timeline. And even what it has yet to explain, it is still a more likely and rational answer than assuming magical elves are running the show.

You have to take on faith the idea that man could evolve all the way from a single celled organism into what it is today without any external influence.


No, you don't have to rely faith at all in evolution. Faith is the belief in something without any evidence to suggest its authenticity or reliability. Much as your first admission since this tirade began, there is a huge body of ever-growing evidence which supports evolution. It is supported by science. Thus, believing in evolution does not involve faith whatsoever. What involves faith is believing magical elves are pulling strings behind the curtain.

Man can not observe it happening, nor can we fully explain it happening. So atheists are taking everything on faith as well.
So that makes the "debate" pointless. I'll just instead stay off this thread.


We observe evolution in nature and labs all the time. Again, I'm sorry you don't have all the answers to all of your questions immediately but the data already available makes it actually probable whereas staring at cracks in the earth and saying 'magical elves' did it requires faith.
Last edited by Shikanosuke on Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:07 pm

I certainly won't be apologizing for asking someone not to throw around insults, if you want to call someone a jerk in a debate then this really isn't a suitable place for it, as insults are not productive here!!

As I have said before many times, challenging each others beliefs is not a bad or insulting thing but name calling is!!

When you enter into this type of debate you have to accept that others will not have the same belief nor the same reverence as you may have for the God you believe in!! It is not insulting to compare a mythological being to another mythological being especially if the same amount of evidence exists for the existence of either!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

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It is a CHOICE!!
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:54 pm

mendedties wrote:Shik, you are being intentionally obtuse, I believe. I am having a difficult time believing I am not being trolled here.



If you feel your being trolled, probably better to report it rather then make a accusation (of sorts) in the thread. For the record, having watched the debate, I can't see evidence of trolling from Shi.

On a non-mod thing, you might want to ease back from the discussion as you have planned to do as you seem to have gotten rather... testy in last page or so.

Shozuhn wrote:Sorry to double post, as i know that is frowned upon in most forums, but I decided I had more I wanted to say. And I kinda don't like the idea that someone might think I've changed my last post due to posting something that I decided to take back.


To add to what Sun Xia said, editing a post to add something in (or alter the tone or change the post a bit) is understood and nobody blames another for doing that. It is preferable to a double post

Shozuhn wrote:Me!!
He's the one throwing out insults about magical elves and lack of critical thinking instead of actually refuting my points. Yet I get a warning and you say nothing to him... clearly a very bias moderator. I notice you edit out the part where I quote his insults that lead to my response...


Ok, how about a second opinion?

In my view, Shi's post was a tad over aggressive after a lengthy debate and it wouldn't hurt for him to tone it down a tad (I'm aware this is pot=kettle=black thing on my part mind). It wasn't flaming however and certainly didn't deserve a personal attack.

Your post was a flame. Having publicly attacked the integrity of a mod, you owe Sun Xia an apology. You are entitled to disagree and appeal a decision however attacking the integrity is crossing the line.

If your unhappy with how Sun Xia or I have handled this, please pm James or Lady Wu and have a pleasant day :)
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby James » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:49 pm

Hi everyone. Let's just take a step back for a moment before replying for a breather.

Shozuhn, SunXia's intentions are good. We're all human, and in retrospect there are pretty much always changes we might make to the way we approach something or factors we overlooked. It doesn't help that this is a text-based medium of communication where it is so very easy to misunderstand someone's intentions when you only have their written word to review. And it can be very hard to moderate exchanges like this. Where do you draw the line? Here, the line is usually drawn when the personal attacks start to appear and all too often the line we draw looks a bit rough. For example, those attacks typically start to appear after a discussion has already become heated and personal. I certainly make my share of mistakes in communicating even when I'm trying to be careful.

For what it's worth, our intention is always to steer civil debate and discussion.

Because we allow discussion of deeply personal subjects like religion and politics in this forum it is pretty common for some frustration or aggression to crop up here and there in discussion and we always ask that people take a step back and reply respectfully, even when they disagree with someone. I agree with Dong Zhuo's assessment here. Shikanosuke's response to you was more antagonistic than it needed to be and you responded personally. Would it be possible for us to acknowledge, here, that this is a personal subject, some here are frustrated or upset and it's showing in their writing, and that discussions like this would be better served by focusing on our arguments and facts?

It's an mature subject and it's best approached with mature discussion.

- - -

And since I've read through everything, here are my thoughts for the sake of discussion:

Shozuhn wrote:I you were walking thru the wilderness and came upon a large stone that resembled the Easter Island stones, would you not naturally assume it wasn't natural?
This is how I see the world around me. The world itself, and the people in it, seem far to complex to have occurred naturally. Since the world looks designed to me, I assume there was a designer.
Perhaps the world doesn't look designed to you. That's fine. That doesn't make you ignorant. Nor does me thinking it looks designed. Two intelligent people think differently quite often.
But I say this as a response to the idea many people have that logic is never a precursor to faith. There's nothing wrong with logic based faith. And having faith, is not a sign of an illogical mind.

Shozuhn wrote:I mean, I can bring up that science can't explain all the complexities of this world and the people in it... and that perhaps belief in God can explain these things... get insulted for saying his... call the person rude for insulting me... and I get a warning and told to apologize...

Here's where you're going to encounter disagreement. If I come across the Easter Island stones I'm going to conclude they're man made. It's very easy to do. They're highly unusual, grouped together in similar design, and they bear the resemblance of their most probable creator. It's a highly logical evidence-based conclusion.

To me, that doesn't carry to the universe. There is a great deal I do not understand about the universe. There is a great deal science does not understand. But science has fantastic explanations for a wide range of stuff we could never have imagined without centuries of collective knowledge, research, and tools. Something as fundamental as that spark of life that causes a human to function is still a fascinating subject. But here's where logic ends. If you don't know what the truth is, the natural conclusion of logic is to say 'I don't know'. Logic allows for someone to form a theory to explain the unexplained, but it should fit with existing evidence, err in the direction of probability, and should exist only to explore a logic-based understanding of the subject.

This is the conflict with religion. Religion creates a comprehensive explanation for these complicated subjects—and this includes explaining why the universe exists—and then goes on to carefully define individual elements of that explanation. It's remarkable enough to say, "The universe is fascinating! Surely, there must be some kind of creative force behind it!" After all, why is there anything? Why is there existence? We've already jumped into the rabbit hole by making assumptions here. But we begin to climb deeper into the hole when we start to define this creative force. Once we've decided that creator looks like us—that we've been created in its image—we're taking an extremely arrogant approach to the problem. Not only have we not long looked like us in this world, but our world is one infinitesimally small spec in the universe. We go on to say that this creator is indeed God, that God is white and male, we outline God's particular interest and involvement with us on this planet. There's a point where it is no longer logic based. It is simply a comprehensive explanation we adopt to explain things we do not understand. It is something we take to be true on the basis of faith.

You wrote, "I mean, I can bring up that science can't explain all the complexities of this world and the people in it... and that perhaps belief in God can explain these things..."

This represents a fundamental difference between science and religion. Science seeks to explain everything, but when it cannot explain something it constructs theories—tools used to facilitate future understanding rather than to comprehensively explain the unknown—and recognizes that those are, in fact, theories (setting aside widespread misunderstanding of what 'theory' means in science). If it cannot explain something, it acknowledges that it cannot. When it has explained something, it tries to challenge that explanation. It does not accept as fact any explanation which is not supported by evidence even if that explanation matches the puzzle. Indeed, some of the most well-supported concepts, like evolution and gravity, continue to be framed as theories, in scientific definition of that concept.

What the typical person views as God—the defined creative force—follows a different approach. It explains everything, but cannot be supported by evidence. Rather than discard or question this concept because it cannot be supported by evidence, people instead believe in it on the basis of faith. It does not matter whether it is a probable solution to the unknown. It is someone putting together a puzzle, having trouble finding pieces, and solving the dilemma but cutting those pieces out of a handy fabric to fit into the vacant slots.

There is a very good reason why science doesn't explain everything, and in my personal opinion, it is extremely valuable and even empowering to take ownership of things in life which are genuinely not understood.
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:22 pm

Hoo boy, that was some fire.

I'm going to take agreement with Shozuhn on this one, especially this part: "Since the the world looks designed to me, I assume there was a designer". That is the sort of logic based approach I bring when it comes to my faith.

Debate it with me if you wish to, but you'll never change my mind.
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Re: Creationism/Evolution Debate

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:58 pm

Fledgling Dragon wrote:
Debate it with me if you wish to, but you'll never change my mind.


Is that so? Are you stating that if you were shown that the logic you're employing was faulty or the body of evidence suggested otherwise you would never change your mind?
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