Lu Xun's bio -- a preview, and some questions

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Re: Lu Xun's bio -- a preview, and some questions

Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:57 pm

Cao Zijian wrote:Kudos to both Lady Wu and Cai Yan for such an intriguing and captivating bio. Appreciate the time and effort.

Sorry if I am pecking once perfection but isn't the English translation for one of the Vice Controllers Fu Tong instead of Fu Rong?

Thank you thank you! :D We can hardly claim credit for the intriguing and captivating content. Lu Xun is so cool, there is no way to not make his bio interesting. :lol: (Plus we didn't write the bio, we just translated it...)

jiuwan would know all about the Fu Rong/Fu Tong debate. Basically, in Chen Shou original text and in the sources that Pei quotes, the guy's name is Fu Rong. However, in Sima Guang's ZZTJ, he was Fu Tong, and that's the version you find in SGYY. (I hope this is the story for Fu Rong and I didn't get him mixed up with (Fu) Shi Ren...)
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Unread postby Rhiannon » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:20 pm

I cannot in anyway help with anything except English grammar... if it even needs to be corrected (I'm sure Lady Wu is QUITE adept at this. :wink: ) I love it, of course. I've been playing Lu Xun on SimRTK and I just adore him... I'm going to hate to lose playing him next Sim. Regardless...

If you stick with a text document, maybe you could find a way to include the pinyin along with or instead of the characters? (I hate saying instead of. Scratch that part.) If you go to PDF.... sidenotes would allow you to do that and keep the bio clean. Mmm. I do admit though, (since I'm at school right now), that having (??) after names is distracting when you don't have language support.
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The saga continues...

Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:36 pm

Alright, 3 more pages to go! (And I had better do some real school work now!)
Wild-Eyes, could you explain the sidenote thing with respect to .pdfs? I wouldn't want to revert to a plain text document, since I think the use of italics and margins does help with all the notes, long memorials, etc. If I know how to do Chinese characters in LaTeX, I could do something to make the characters appear in one version but not another... (BTW, does anyone here know how to TeX Chinese characters?)

And please do help with the proofreading... hopefully James can host it and people can download and print it as a complete file when it's done (rather than reading 18 pages on the screen! hahahah!). I talk a lot about grammar and stuff, but when it comes to my own writing... heh....heh.... :oops:

(i) Yiling was renamed Xiling in the first year of Huangwu.

In the first year of Huang Long (A.D. 229), Lu Xun was appointed the rank of Commander-in-Chief of the First Army (上大将军) and Right General and Chief Commissioner (右都护). During this year, Sun Quan embarked on a surveying trip to Jian Ye, leaving the Crown Prince, the other princes, and all the civil officiers behind. He summoned Lu Xun back to assist the Crown Prince, while overlooking the administration of Jing Province and the three commanderies of Yuzhang (i) and supervising all internal and external matters. During then, Sun Lü (孫慮), the Marquis of Jianchang (建昌), had an exquisite duck-fight shed built in front of his hall. Lu Xun said to him sternly, "My Marquis, you should be studying the classics to increase your knowledge. Why do you engage in such activities?" Sun Lu immediately ordered for the duck-fight shed to be dismantled. Sun Song (孫松), Colonel of Sound-Piercing Archery (射声校尉) (ii) was one of Sun Quan's favourites among the junior aristocrats. He allowed his men to make merry without constraints, and his military discipline was lax. Lu Xun thus punished Sun Song's officers by shaving their heads in front of him (iii). There was also one Xie Jing (謝景) of Nanyang (南陽), who deeply admired Liu Yi's (劉廙) theory of punishments before civility. Lu Xun scoffed at Xie Jing, saying, "Encouraging morality has always been before punishments for a very long time. Liu Yi is wrong to distort the teachings of the sages of yore by twisting their words. Since you, sir, are now serving the Crown Prince, you should follow the teachings of compassion and honour and spread the teachings of benevolence. As for the words like those of Liu Yi's, they should not be mentioned again (iv)!"

(i) Yuzhang, Poyang, and Luling. Being adjacent to Jing Province and inhabited by many Shanyue, these were the commanderies that crucially required a strong governor.
(ii) Captain of the Imperial Night Guard. Presumably, since the guard is on the night shift, it is important for one to fell an assailant by sound alone.
(iii) In traditional Chinese ideology, one’s hair is just like one’s limbs, borne of one’s parents and thus unacceptable to alter or mutilate. Having one’s hair shaved is as humiliating a punishment as having one’s nose cut off.

(iv) Lu Xun’s position of education over punishment stems from classical Confucianism. In the Analects of Confucius:
“Confucius said: If people are governed by laws, and order is maintained through punishment, then people will keep away from wrongdoing: but only because they want to avoid punishment, not because they have a sense of shame in doing wrong. If people are inspired by a moral and virtuous government, and order is maintained by rites of propriety, then people will want to be good because they have a sense of shame in doing wrong. - To Govern, Book II Chapter III, taken from The Sayings of Confucius(子曰: "道之以政, 齐之以刑, 民免而无耻; 道之以德,齐之以礼, 有耻且格." - 为政第二: 三)

Even when Lu Xun was stationed away from the capital, he was often concerned deeply with the affairs of the state. He memorialized his views regarding current affairs saying,

"I, Your servant, feel that the laws are too strict and stringent, causing more individuals to be charged with committing petty crimes. In the recent years, generals and civil officers alike have been involved in some violation or another – though they ought to be punished for their negligence, the world has yet to be united into one kingdom, hence we should overlook small errors committed in order to stabilise the morale of the staff. Furthermore, employing people of ability and talent should be our priority, and so as long as the misdoings are not malicious or degenerate in nature or something unforgiveable, I propose for such people to be reinstated so as to have their abilities to be utilised again to return Your Majesty's kindness.

This is the reason why the saints and kings of the old were able to establish their kingdoms, that is, by forgiving people's mistakes of the past and remembering their contributions. In the past, the Great Progenitor of the Han (漢高祖) did not consider accusations against Chen Ping (陳平) (i), but instead used his brilliant strategies to build the foundation of the Han Dynasty, achieving deeds that are immortal.

Stringent laws and harsh punishments do not augment the empire; punishment without clemency does not make people of the land content."

(i) Chen Ping had been accused for various things – being in the ranks of Xiang Yu (項羽), archenemy of Liu Bang, before defecting to the Han side; having an affair with his sister-in-law; and accepting bribes from other generals. Rather then punishing him, Liu Bang promoted him to a central position in the military, and with Chen’s good planning Han eventually triumphed and united the land.

Sun Quan wanted to send a force to take over Yizhou (夷州) and Zhuya (朱崖), and consulted Lu Xun on the matter. Lu Xun wrote to him, saying,

"I, your humble servant, think that since the land within our borders is still not completely peaceful yet, we should gather the strength of the people to address current internal concerns. For many years now we have been engaged in warfare, and our forces have been depleted. Now, Your Majesty has been so worried with the matter that sleep and meals have been neglected, in order to plan the expedition against Yizhou. After considering it several times over, I still do not see the benefit of this action.

Sending our forces over such a great distance, we can predict neither wind nor waves; Being in a foreign land, our men would definitely become ill. If we are to dispatch our men to such wild lands, we would lose even if we planned to gain, and potential profits would turn out to be losses. Furthermore, Zhuya is a dangerous land, and its inhabitants are like wild beasts. Even if we were to take over their people, they would be of no use to us; and if we don't keep a military presence there we could not control them either.

We have men and resources enough within the Southlands to fulfill the Great Ambition (i), and all we need to do is to conserve our strength and then proceed in action. When Prince Huan [Sun Ce] established his power, he started off with not even a full company of soldiers, but eventually he built a successful rule. Now Your Majesty has continued to follow the Mandate and built up the kingdom by the River. I've heard that while the awe inspired by an army is required to subdue trouble-makers and rebels, the most basic industry of the people should be farming for food and producing silk in order to feed and clothe themselves. At this time, fighting has not ceased yet, but the people are hungry and cold. My humble view is that we should let the people rest and be nourished, and relax rents and taxes, so that we achieve harmony and encourage bravery through righteousness. In that way the lands of the Yellow River and Wei River will become ours, and unity will be brought to all under heaven."

(i) That is, to take over the world.

However, Sun Quan went ahead and attacked Yizhou. And indeed, the gains from that action could not make up for the losses.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:51 am

Guess what I've been doing instead of homework? :lol:

When Gongsun Yuan betrayed the alliance with Wu, Sun Quan contemplated to lead an expedition against him. Lu Xun petitioned,

"Gongsun Yuan, relying on the geographical advantage of his land and the strength of his defences, dare detain our country's messager and withhold the the tribute of fine horses -- such actions indeed are hateful and insufferable! The barbarians that they are, they disturb the peace in the Central Lands, being ignorant and unaffected by our great culture. Like birds and beasts they hide in the wilderness, refusing to submit to our imperial forces. By this they have moved Your Majesty to royal wrath, desiring to risk your most precious person and sail across the vast seas to attack them, disregarding the dangers of this venture and the unpredictability of the outcome.

In our time, the world is in turmoil and warlords fightone another like fierce tigers. Men of prowess are restless and battlecries ring as they glare at one another with enmity. By Your Majesty's divine and commanding splendour, you have received the Mandate of Heaven, crushing Cao Cao at Wulin, defeating Liu Bei at Xiling, and capturing Guan Yu at Jingzhou. All these three men are the heroes and talents of this era, and yet you have thwarted them one by one. All within ten thousand li submit to our rule and teachings, as grass bows to the blowing wind. Now is the time for us to roll through the Central Plains, bringing peace and unity to all the world. Yet, not bearing this slight offence, Your Majesty reveal your thunderlike anger; defying warnings of the old of not sitting under the edge of the roof to prevent getting hit by chipped tiles, Your Majesty risk your noble self in an endeavour unworthy of your concern. This, your servant cannot comprehend.

Your servant has heard of a saying that a person who is determined to walk ten thousand li does not stop his pace midway; by analogy, one who has designs to conquer the world will not allow a small incident to disrupt the grand plan. Strong enemies are at our borders, and the wilderlands still lie beyond the court’s influence (i). Should Your Majesty board the ships to go on a far expedition, that would tempt our enemies to take advantage of our situation. By the time you worry of the arriving dangers, it will be too late to regret.

If we can successfully unite the world, Gongsun Yuan will surrender to us without us having to conquer him. Your Majesty desires the populace and the steeds of Liaodong, but would You then give away our stable establishment in the Southlands? Your humble servant begs you to cease all preparations for the expedition; rather, strike fear in our main enemies, that we may soon pacify the Central Plains and bring glory memorable for a thousand ages to come."

Sun Quan thus accepted his proposal.

(i) Referring to lands that are within the borders but which are furthest away from the capital region.
In the fifth year of Jia He (A.D. 236), Sun Quan led a northern expedition to Wei, sending Lu Xun and Zhuge Jin to attack Xiangyang. Lu Xun had dispatched his trusted subordinate, Han Bian, to bring a report to Sun Quan; but on the way back, Han Bian encountered enemy soldiers at Mianzhong and was captured. When Zhuge Jin got news of this, he was extremely alarmed and wrote a letter to Lu Xun, saying, "His Majesty has just retreated and the enemies have captured Han Bian. They have thus gained our crucial military information. Moreover, the rivers have dried up – this is the time for us to make a hasty withdrawal." Lu Xun did not reply this letter, but rather spent his time supervising turnip- and bean-planting, playing chess and games with his subordinates as if nothing is happening. Zhuge Jin said, " Lu Boyan is an ingenious person; surely he has a plan.” And so he paid a visit to Lu Xun. Lu Xun said to him, “The enemy knows that His Majesty had retreated so they have no worries and can concentrate their forces against us. Moreover, they have already positioned their armies at strategic points. Our troops' morale is wavering, so we should keep ourselves composed in order to calm the fears of our troops. Only then can we be flexible and devise strategies for a retreat. If we give any hints of withdrawal now, the enemies will think that we are afraid and continue to pursue our troops, which will undoubtedly lead to our defeat."

At that, Lu Xun and Zhuge Jin secretly conceived of a plan; Zhuge Jin was to lead the navy while Lu Xun commanded all the land troops feigning an attack on Xiangyang city. Since the enemies had always been fearful of Lu Xun, they immediately headed back into the city. Zhuge Jin thus led the navy to set off, whilst Lu Xun slowly reorganised the army, put on a false show of might, and proceeded on foot to board the ships. The enemies dared not pursue him. When the army reached Baiwei, Lu Xun announced to settle down at the region to hunt, while secretly ordering Generals Zhou Jun, Zhang Liang and others to invade Xinshi, Anlu and Shiyang counties of Jiangxia commandery. At that juncture, Shi Yang county was bustling with activities and when Zhou Jun arrived suddenly, the people abandoned their possessions hastily and raced back into the city, resulting in a blockage at the city gates which prevented them from being closed. The enemies had to kill their own civilians in order to shut the city gates. The Wu army slaughtered and captured some one thousand people(1). Those captured alive were given protection, and the soldiers were not allowed to harass them. Those who brought their families forth to seek assistance were taken care of. And to those who had lost their wives and children, clothes and food were granted bountifully before they were sent off. There were some were touched and impressed by this gesture, hence they brought their families to submit to the Wu sovereignty. In the vicinities, civilians also came to submit to Wu (2). Zhao Zhuo, from the department of merit (i) in Jiangxia, Pei Sheng, a general garrisoned at Geyang commandery, as well as Mei Yi, the leader of the barbarians were among those who led their subordinates and protegés to to submit to Lu Xun. Lu Xun then distributed all the riches in solicitude.

(1) I, Songzhi, your humble servant, feel that though Lu Xun was worried that when Sun Quan retreated Wei would concentrate their forces on him, he was able to make a false show of power to scare the enemy into staying put, successfully allowing his navy to retreat safely. This in itself was sufficient to set fears and concerns to rest, so why did he send his men to ambush a small county, causing a stampede among the civilians and killing themselves as a result? Capturing a mere thousand people is not sufficient to hurt Wei. This is a cruel act that led to innocent casualties in vain. In comparison to Zhuge Liang's army at the Banks of Wei, what a difference we see! Since the rules of warfare were violated, the grave consequences that come with such misconduct would effect. That the kingdom did not last beyond three generations, ending in destruction during the grandson’s reign – is this not from the evil that reverberated from this action?

(i) The department of merit includes several officers who act as the right-hand men of the chief administrator of a commandery or a county. They are originally in charge of recording merits and dismerits of the officers in the jurisdiction, and recommending promotions and demotions.

(2) I, Songzhi, your humble servant, think that this is no different than saving a fledgling after destroying a forest, throwing down every nest. Would such meagre favours be sufficient to make up for the great wrong done to them?

Lu Shi, the Wei governor of Jiangxia, was given a military command and often disturbed the Wu borders. He had long been at loggerheads with Wen Xiu, the son of the veteran general Wen Pin. When Lu Xun got to know of this situation, he feigned letter in reply to Lu Shi, saying, "Upon receiving your letter, I know that you are sincere. I know that you and Wen Xiu has always been unable to get along, and unable to stand the other's presence, hence your consideration to submit to our office. I have secretly sent your letter to the imperial court, and will gather my men to welcome you. You sir, should hastily make preparations in secret now, and inform us the exact time of your surrender." Lu Xun despatched a person to place the letter on the borders. When Lu Shi's soldiers picked up the letter and handed it over to him, he was horrified. Thus, he personally sent his wife and children back to Luoyang (i). From then on, Lu Shi's peers and subordinates were unwilling to get close to him and subsequently, Lu Shi was removed of his ranks(1).

(i) As a gesture to prove his innocence.

(1) Your servant, Songzhi, is of the opinion that it is a common thing for a[n enemy] general garrisoned at the border to create trouble. Even if Lu Shi is framed, his replacement would do the same thing. It's not the case that Lu Shi was intentionally malicious and a trouble-maker who would be a grave concern to security -- in fact, it was a trivial matter undeserving of Lu Xun's concern, let alone requiring him to use a mean trick in the matter! I cannot agree on [Chen Shou's] making this sound like a good thing.

In the sixth year of Jiahe (A.D. 237), Zhou Di, General of the Imperial Palace Guard, requested for permission to recruit soldiers at Fanyang commandery. Sun Quan asked Lu Xun for his opinion on this matter. Lu Xun felt that the Fanyang was prone to insurgence and its denizens not law-abiding, hence recruitment should not take place as it would lead to civil unrest. However, Zhou Di insisted on recruiting. As expected, Wu Ju and other Fanyang civilians rose in rebellion and killed Zhou Di, taking over several commanderies. At Yuzhang and Huling, resident trouble-makers responded to Wu Ju's uprising. When Lu Xun got news of this, he immediately set out to quell the rebellions and successfully defeated the outlaws. Wu Ju and others surrendered. From them, Lu Xun chose some eight thousand to join the elite troops, and the three commanderies were thus pacified.

At that time, Lu Yi (呂壹), Chief Editor of the Department of Documents (中書典校), was corrupt and abusive of his power. Lu Xun and Pan Jun (潘濬), Chief Minister of Rites (太常), were both very concerned with the situation, constantaly petitioning [Sun Quan to rectify the situation] to the point of tears. At some point after that, Sun Quan had Lu Yi put to death, and reproached himself greatly [for allowing Lu Yi's recklessness]. This is discussed in Sun Quan's biography.

Around that time too, Xie Yuan (謝淵), Xie Gong (謝厷), among others proposed various reforms aimed to increase state revenues(1). Sun Quan inquired Lu Xun for his opinion. Lu Xun gave the following analysis: "A state has at its foundation the common people, its strength built on the labour of the people, its wealth coming from the contribution of the people. Never is it the case that the populace can be wealthy when the state is poor, nor can the people be weak while the state is strong. Therefore, those in charge of the affairs of the state create peace by winning the support of the people, and create havoc by losing their support. Furthermore, it is difficult to make people dedicate their effort to the country if they cannot see what is in it for them. Thus in the Book of Odes, there is this exclamation: 'One who benefits the commoners, who benefits the people/He shall be shown great favours by Heaven.' I beg Your Majesty to show Your mercy to the people, and seek to make changes only when our resources are more abundant, after a few years' time.'

(1) In Records of Kuaiji: Xie Yuan, styled Xiude (休德), practised virtue at a young age. Though he had to till the ground and farm for a living, never did he show displeasure [of his poverty], nor did he become anxious easily. Thus his name became known in the land. He was later recommended as Filial and Incorrupt, and then eventually promoted to General who Establishes Might (建武將軍). Even when he was employed in the armed forces, he kept a lookout for talented men in the land. Luo Tong's son, Luo Xiu (駱秀), was implicated in a scandal in his family. Everyone held him in suspicion, and he could not clear his name. After hearing about it, Xie Yuan sighed and said, "Gongxu's (公緒) (Luo Tong's style name) too-early death is mourned by all of us. I've heard that his son is honourable and upright in his ambition and his conduct, but now he is covered by the shadow of an baseless scandal. I had hoped that all of you good sirs would judge correctly in his case; however, seeing that you each still have your doubts about him, I am disappointed." Eventually, Luo Xiu's name was cleared, and no fault was again attributed to him. Furthermore, he ended up being a famous and respected gentleman of the time, and that was all due to Xie Yuan's help.
In Annuals of Wu: Xie Gong was a talented debator, full of plans and strategems.
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And the season finale....

Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:53 am

Great honour, but ignoble death... :cry:
In the 7th year of Chiwu (AD 244), Lu Xun replaced Gu Yong as Prime Minister. The imperial decree issued for this ran thus:

“Though lacking in virtue and undeserving are We, by Heaven’s Mandate We ascended the throne. The earthly realm, though, is not yet unified, and criminals and evil-doers still fill the land. Night and day We tremble with worry, unable to take time even to rest.

But, you, sir, have been endowed with great intelligence and wisdom, and your brilliant virtues are apparent to all. Ever since you have been appointed as a general, you have upheld the honour of the country, defeating all her challengers. It is a fact that those who have performed extraordinary deeds will be glorified with boundless honour, and he who is full of martial and governmental talents will be given the burdens of the country. In the past, Yi Yin (伊尹) augmented the power of the Shang (商) (i), and Lü Shang (呂尚) assisted the mighty Zhou (周) (ii); likewise, you, sir, shall be bestowed with the responsibilities of both affairs internal and external. Today, I make you, sir, the Prime Minister, and I command Fu Chang, Acting Grand Master of Ceremonies and Bearer of the Jie(使持節守太常) (iii) to bestow on you the seal and cord of your position. We entrust you, sir, to propagate the proper virtues, to accomplish monumental achievements, to bear the imperial orders and pacify the four corners of the world!

Be now the one above the Three Dukes, be now the one to admonish your peers. May you be respected, and may you always be heartened at your post.

Maintain the posts of Provincial Governor, Chief Commissioner and designated adminstrator of Wuchang as before.”

(i) Yi Yin, according to legend, was a slave of the Youxin (有莘) tribe who entered the household of Tang, leader of the Shang, as part of a marriage alliance. Tang recognised Yi Yin’s talents and entrusted him with affairs of the state, and with his help destroyed the Xia dynasty and established the Shang.
(ii) Lü Shang, also known as Jiang Shang (姜尚), was an elderly man before King Wen of Zhou (周文王) discovered him and employed him as his chief advisor. He helped King Wen’s son, King Wu of Zhou (周武王), defeat the Shang and established the Zhou dynasty.

(iii) “Bearer of the Jie” is the title given to one who has been granted a set of prerogatives, which include the ability to execute anyone below the rank of 2,000 shi. The shi is a unit of grain, and during the Han the position of a rank is classified according to the salary, measured in shi.

Sometime before this, there were vacancies in the offices of two of the princes (i), and many of the ministers both within and outside the capital sent their sons and younger brothers to fill the positions. Quan Zong notified Lu Xun of this, and Lu Xun argued that should one’s junior family members really have talent, one should not have to worry about them being unemployed. Thus, one should not seek to establish connections in private, lest disaster ensue when a prince proves to not to be good. Furthermore, between two princes with equal power conflict must result – wise men of times past avoided getting involved in such situations.

However, Ji, son of Quan Zong, did end up affiliating himself with the Prince of Lu’s faction, and helped the Prince to develop schemes and plots (ii). Lu Xun then wrote to Quan Zong, saying, “Not taking Mi Di as a model (iii), and putting up with A-Ji’s behaviour -- my friend, you are courting disaster for your clan!” Quan Zong did not accept this advice and ill feelings came between the two men. Then, when it became apparent that the Crown Prince’s position was no longer secure, Lu Xun wrote to the Emperor, saying, “The Crown Prince, being the rightful heir, should have a foundation of power as solid as rock; while the Prince of Lu, being a vassal-prince, should be made to know his inferior position by being granted fewer favours than the Crown Prince. If all know their position in the hierarchy, both the superiors and their subordinates will know peace. I kowtow humbly, to the point of bleeding, imploring Your Majesty to consider this.” Lu Xun sent letter after letter, asking to be allowed an audience in the capital in order to discuss in preson the matter of differentiating the eldest son from the rest, and to right the wrongs committed. He was never granted a hearing. In addition, Lu Xun’s nephews Gu Tan, Gu Cheng, and Yao Xin were exiled for other connection with the crown prince. Wu Can, Grand Tutor of the Crown Prince, was sent to jail and executed for his correspondence with Lu Xun. Sun Quan also repeatedly sent envoys from the court to reprimand Lu Xun. Filled with vexation and grief, Lu Xun died, at the age of 63. He had little wealth to leave behind to his family.

(i) Sun He (孫和), the then crown prince, and Sun Ba (孫霸), Prince of Lu (魯王).
(ii) Even though Sun Quan had established Sun He as his heir, he showed enormous favours towards Sun Ba, leading to Ba’s rivalry with He. At the end, Ba was ordered to commit suicide, and He lost his position as crown prince.

Formerly, when Ji Yan submitted a proposal for constructing official buildings, Lu Xun admonished against that, predicting that it would lead to trouble. At another occasion, he said to Zhuge Ke, “Towards those above my position, I would respect them and work in concurrence with them; those who are below me I support and promote. But now, I see you, sir, carrying an air that threatens those superior to you and belittles those subordinate to you. This is not the way to build a stable career for yourself.” And yet at another time, Lu Xun predicted that one Yang Zhu of Guangling, who had made a name for himself in his youth, was bound to end up in calamity; and furthermore advised Yang Zhu’s older brother, Yang Mu, to sever him from the clan. Those are an indication of Lu Xun’s foresight. Lu Xun’s eldest, Lu Yan, died in infancy, and his second son, Lu Kang became his heir. During the reign of Sun Xiu, Lu Xun was granted the posthumous title of the Marquis of Brilliance.
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Re: Lu Xun's bio -- a preview, and some questions

Unread postby jiuwan » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:54 am

Lady Wu wrote:jiuwan would know all about the Fu Rong/Fu Tong debate.

What?! When did I become a Fu Rong expert :shock:

Sure I may love this guy and think he's great because he died with honour and loyalty; nevertheless, I'm no expert on him. I'll divulge what info I know (Oh by the way, I just want to say his death should be right up there with Dian Wei's death. Too bad the Shu records is a mess; therefore having little info on him).

This is Fu Rong: 傅 肜
This is Fu Tong: 傅 彤

Notice for the word 'tong' one stroke is wrong from 'rong'? In chinese words, if there's an extra stroke or missing a stroke it can mean a totally different word.

:arrow: In the Chen Shou's original San Guo Zhi, he uses the name Fu Rong. (Scroll 45, Book of Shu 15: Fu Rong's bio)
:arrow: Pei Song Zhi uses Fu Rong as well when he quotes other passages in Chen Shou's SGZ. {Scroll 45, Book of Shu 15: Fu Rong's bio. Pei quotes from Han Ji Zai Jin's the Wu Di's (the Martial Emperor's) imerial decree}
:arrow: Sima Guang in Zi Zhi Tong Jian as well uses Fu Rong, not Fu Tong as Lady Wu said. (ZZTJ scroll 69 under 222AD, fifth/sixth month)
:arrow: In Hua Yang Guo Zhi, Liu Li makes the mistake and uses Fu Tong. (HYGZ Scroll 6: Liu Bei's bio under 222AD, summer sixth month)

Now when Luo Guan Zhong wrote San Guo Yan Yi he used Fu Tong instead of Fu Rong which is wrong. It is widely known he based most of his material on SGZ. SGZ and ZZTJ has the right names; however, Liu Li makes a mistake in HYGZ. I do not know for sure if Luo Guan Zhong made the mistake as well or is he based it on HYGZ instead.

My personal speculation is Luo Guan Zhong made the same mistake as Liu Li did; hence, most people accepts Luo Guan Zhong as making the mistake. I am not sure if those same people are aware of Liu Li's mistake as well or not.

My reasoning is this: Luo Guan Zhong has access to SGZ, ZZTJ, and HYGZ to base his novel from. ZZTJ and HYGZ essential contain the same stuff found in SGZ with variations on wording. LGZ also has access to Hou Han Shu, but HHS only covers to the year 220AD, so there is no info on Yi Ling in there.

Since LGZ based most of his novel off SGZ, it makes no sense for him to use Fu Tong from HYGZ while using the bulk of info from SGZ. There are three sources which uses Fu Rong (Chen Shou, Pei Song Zhi and Sima Guang). Now why would he discredit three reliable sources for Liu Li who made a mistake. Granted LGZ used folklores and legends in his novel, but mistakes in names is different.

So I assume LGZ made the same mistake as Liu Li did. *sigh* This guy gave his life for the Han kingdom and both LGZ and Liu Li screw up his name, no wonder not much people know/remember him.

Lady Wu wrote:Basically, in Chen Shou original text and in the sources that Pei quotes, the guy's name is Fu Rong. However, in Sima Guang's ZZTJ, he was Fu Tong, and that's the version you find in SGYY. (I hope this is the story for Fu Rong and I didn't get him mixed up with (Fu) Shi Ren...)

That's (Fu) Shi Ren. I already explained Fu Rong's case up above. Sima Guang used Fu Shi Ren instead of just Shi Ren.

Okay for the translation part. I didn't get a chance to read it all yet, I'll do that after finals. But from the first post that I read it looks good. Good job Joyce and Lady Wu 8-)

For the footnotes explaining Chinese customs and history: Lady Wu I'm going to give you the same advice you gave me - INCLUDE THEM!! There is a lot of allusions and referencing to other parts of Chinese history, literature, other characters etc. It is good for the non-Chinese readers to know about it so they understand the whole passage better. Also it's good for people like me (and lots of others such as non-Chinese readers), because we don't know other periods. By explaining in the footnotes it helps understand the passage better.

For the chinese characters part: Don't have them. While I personally love it because it can clarify people; for example, the three Zhang Yis in Shu, also it can cause trouble. Especially to those that don't have chinese language support on their computers, it can be a pain to read.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:28 am

Alright. I'll just make 2 versions of the text, one with the characters, one without. I think it's important to keep the characters in, partly to distinguishs people like the 3 Zhang Yi's, but also with respect to the rank-names, it's good to give people a way to find out more about it (and possibly to correct us on it) since there is no "proper" English translations for them.

I've included all the cultural/historical references that I thought was important, but it'd be good if someone else who don't know this stuff (thus cannot take stuff for granted) to suggest what else to include.

I guess you'd be asking for geographical notes next...sigh....
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:34 am

As much as I enjoy the Chinese characters, I would suggest leaving them out. All other issues of character support aside, they can get cluttery and make the text seem disjointed. If a particular name or rank translation is a little dubious, you might want to include the original characters in a footnote, to maintain the flow of the narrative without losing extra explanation.
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Re: The saga continues...

Unread postby James » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:11 pm

Lady Wu wrote:And please do help with the proofreading... hopefully James can host it and people can download and print it as a complete file when it's done (rather than reading 18 pages on the screen! hahahah!). I talk a lot about grammar and stuff, but when it comes to my own writing... heh....heh.... :oops:

James most certainly can put the biography online for everyone to see (along with jiuwan’s as well, now that I have some more time) and print. I’ve also wrote a custom style sheet for printing from biographies that will turn off site widgets completely, providing a clean biography print. As for putting it into a PDF, you can do that to maintain Asian language support, but that is not possible with normal HTML documents. I do like the inclusion, however, and I may be able to find a way to toggle the display of the characters based off a user preference. We’ll have to see.
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Re: Lu Xun's bio -- a preview, and some questions

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:23 pm

jiuwan wrote:What?! When did I become a Fu Rong expert :shock:

Sure I may love this guy and think he's great because he died with honour and loyalty; nevertheless, I'm no expert on him. I'll divulge what info I know (Oh by the way, I just want to say his death should be right up there with Dian Wei's death. Too bad the Shu records is a mess; therefore having little info on him).

This is Fu Rong: 傅 肜
This is Fu Tong: 傅 彤


Actually, there were quite numerous of mistake that LGZ made in his novel. Below are some of them, Lady Wu, hopefully next time when you work on the translation can mention about it, like point out the wrong words that LGZ used.

SGYY Chapter 11, 糜竺 (Mi Zhu) suppose to be 麋竺 (Mi Zhu)
SGYY Chapter 23, 吉平 (Ji Ping) suppose to be 吉本 (Ji Ben)
SGYY Chapter 65, 龐義 (Pang Yi) suppose to be 龐羲 (Pang Xi)
SGYY Chapter 66, 衛凱 (Wei Kai) suppose to be 衛覬 (Wei Ji)
SGYY Chapter 81, 范疆 (Fan Jiang) suppose to be 范彊 (Fan Jiang)
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