Kongming's Archives Content Requests

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Unread postby James » Wed May 10, 2006 9:10 pm

We’ve been having problems with the server for the last two days. It is probably in the process of being migrated to another server right now. Either way, it is being fixed.
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Unread postby James » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:24 pm

From: Chris (*@hotmail.com) on October 18, 2006:
I would like to request a bio on Yang Hu please.
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Unread postby Sam » Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:33 am

I've always wanted to write an SGYY bio on Yang Hu. It wouldn't be very long, but I could probably complete it within a week from today.
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Unread postby James » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:28 pm

Sam wrote:I've always wanted to write an SGYY bio on Yang Hu. It wouldn't be very long, but I could probably complete it within a week from today.

Awesome. You would make some random fellow feel warm and fuzzy!
I would enjoy reading it too! :)
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Hello world.

Unread postby MiZhu42 » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:04 am

Hey, I am still in the process of reading SGYY and it occurred to me that it would be really handy to have a breakdown of the organization of the armies in the Three Kingdoms period. Maybe that's something nerdy that only I want to know, but you hear all about the vanguard, the encampments, but it's just hard to get a good sense of how the units are really organized, you know? Like what are battallion sizes? How many officers are there per soldier? Are ranks like "General Who Quells the West" just random? What is the officer hierarchy?

It may be a lot to ask, but I think it would help clarify the book for readers and those who want to know more about the history.
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Re: Hello world.

Unread postby James » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:32 am

MiZhu42 wrote:Hey, I am still in the process of reading SGYY and it occurred to me that it would be really handy to have a breakdown of the organization of the armies in the Three Kingdoms period. Maybe that's something nerdy that only I want to know, but you hear all about the vanguard, the encampments, but it's just hard to get a good sense of how the units are really organized, you know? Like what are battallion sizes? How many officers are there per soldier? Are ranks like "General Who Quells the West" just random? What is the officer hierarchy?

It may be a lot to ask, but I think it would help clarify the book for readers and those who want to know more about the history.


That is certainly something I would like to put together but the information is a little difficult to gather on the level I would like. But yes, I agree with you completely—it should be online. For what it is worth I can share some small knowledge with you.

Vanguard: a division that leads a military force. The vanguard is not really any specific size and is subject to a general's interest and circumstance. Generally speaking, one of the division's tougher (or toughest) generals leads the vanguard.

Encampments: I would love to know more about this myself. If you have any specific questions feel free to toss ’em into the Three Kingdoms Questions and Answers thread. Some people might be able to shed some enlightenment. Also, if you want to explore something in detail, do a little research and post a new topic. Some knowledgeable folk might be able to explore a topic in great detail.

Units: armies are measured in legions. A legion is generally considered to be between 3,000 and 6,000 troops, may have roughly 10% cavalry, and should be a fully functional division of troops. For more information members have discussed a fair portion in the <a href="/viewtopic.php?t=8299">Army Size?</a> thread. It is also commonly presented that Three Kingdoms armies were rag-tag bunches that were easily broken by skilled commanders but historic research shows the skill of Three Kingdoms soldiers to be a fair bit beyond this, not only in their combat ability, but also in their organizational skill.

Ranks: there is an excellent topic on ranks somewhere in the forum—probably in the <i>Sanguo Yanyi Symposium</i> forum. I think it was started by Jiuwan. In it forum members broke down all sorts of ranks, their meanings, and what they actually meant. It is a good read and will one day be the subject of a future Kongming's Archives addition. To answer your more specific question, General […] was more or less a generic rank of ‘General’. The text that followed was generally relative to either an action they had performed, or an action they were appointed to accomplish. Ranks were often-times handed down to children.

I recommend you read Dr. Rafe de Crespigny's <i><a href="http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decrespigny/mil_org.html">Later Han Military Organization</a></i> as well!

And welcome to Scholars of Shen Zhou. :)
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Unread postby Xu Yuan » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:12 pm

There's a nasty rumor going around most of the RTK communitythat Zuo ci didn't actually exist, now we know he existed nadh is skill's were used in the bedroom, I remember reading a Hou Han Shu translation on this site about Zuo Ci as well. Though I have yet to see them in his respective biographies. Will they be put in?
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Unread postby James » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:45 pm

Xu Yuan wrote:There's a nasty rumor going around most of the RTK communitythat Zuo ci didn't actually exist, now we know he existed nadh is skill's were used in the bedroom, I remember reading a Hou Han Shu translation on this site about Zuo Ci as well. Though I have yet to see them in his respective biographies. Will they be put in?

Yeah, he certainly existed. You can find his <i>Hou Han shu</i> biography by viewing his <a href="http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/?search=821">encyclopedia entry</a>—it is down there at the bottom. The <i>only</i> reason why he hasn’t been put online at Kongming’s Archives is because the biography system on the site only supports certain biographies. I'm going to do some touching up in the section soon, though, and putting his biography online is definitely in the plans. :)
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Unread postby MiZhu42 » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:10 pm

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Hello world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

James wrote:

That is certainly something I would like to put together but the information is a little difficult to gather on the level I would like. But yes, I agree with you completely—it should be online. For what it is worth I can share some small knowledge with you.


Hey, I just wanted to say I did do some research, (I got a book called "Soldiers of the Dragon: A military history of China") and although this might all be old news to you, I found out the following:

A typical Later Han and Three Kingdoms army would have been divided into two seperate divisions, the Front (Vanguard) and Rear or Left and Right. That much I think we already knew. The personal ambitions and competition between the generals of the two divisions would supposedly drive them to greater success in battle.

Records from a Northwestern Han base states that companies, or Hou Kuan would contain about 60-300 men.

The Hou Kuans would be divided into 5 hou, a hou containing 12-60 men.

These hou would be further divided into a sui, which contained 4-10 men.

Also, 5 Hou Kuan deep deployment seemed standard. (That would mean that one column would contain 300-1,500 men.)

A force of 120,000 would most likely be divided into two forces (left/right, vanguard/rear) of10x20 Hou Kuan or (less likely) 5x40 Hou Kuan.

I know this research might be unusable, or you might know it all already, but as a new member, I thought I should try to contribute something.
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Unread postby James » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:11 am

MiZhu42 wrote:I know this research might be unusable, or you might know it all already, but as a new member, I thought I should try to contribute something.

Actually, thank you for posting that. It gives a general outline that would be good to start research with—especially the Chinese terms listed which would be useful for searching. To expand on this knowledge it would be a good idea to cross-reference with Rafe. You will probably find some errors or overgeneralizations (which is common in most modern summary books, but this certainly doesn't discredit their use). Armies have also likely evolved with time and Later Han specific information would be most helpful.

I've also noticed that commanders often-times march with a forward division (oftentimes the vanguard) followed by a go-ahead unit, followed again by the main division (which may have been composed in a manner similar to what you have mentioned above). It would be interesting to see how those were composed as well.

I'll read more about this and if I can find something worthwhile I'll start a discussion so we can all learn more about it. :)

<i>Edit: Turns out this information is a little more difficult to come across than I had expected! Given this, the information you found while researching is very welcome indeed. I created a topic to hopefully discuss this in greater detail: <a href="http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=16435">Later Han Military Division</a>.
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