Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Koei’s Dynasty Warriors game series. Discuss and enjoy!

Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby talon1579 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:24 pm

I hope the combat doesn't change from Renbu - the only things that need to change are the levels. There's plenty of RTK material to do if you explore the pre-Chi Bi period. It seems Koei are desperate to make every battle between Wu, Wei and Shu, when there are dozens of good battles where only one of them fought against a minor enemy (rescue of Kong Rong!). Also, we need mid-level objectives - DW6 introduced those, but they have no actual effect on the battle.

Different battle types: all we have are kill commander, occasionally take main camp or wipe out all units. Only Chang Ban is different (escort Liu bei to safety). Why not more of these battles? Or other objectives, such as "raid camp" or "take out supply train", or "escort messenger through hostile territory".

And storytelling! Longer cutscenes that actually make sense - not 30 second ones with characters that you've never heard of unless you've read the book.

Finally, a very small amount of strategy - perhaps allowing a battle plan to be set at the beginning (set which forces go down which path), where to place ambushes, but you shouldn't be able to change it mid way through, otherwise it detracts from the action.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby MistroPain » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:59 pm

Skode wrote:
MistroPain wrote:Well Skode if we dont complain nothing will happen... Therefore complaining is actually the best thing we can do... You also said that you dont wanna pay for something new that isnt what you wanted, well there are many additions that can be added to the game without changing the game to the point that its THAT different...
Example: Change the fighting a bit to the point where when you play this battle that time You killed Lu Bu in mid air with lets say a mid air battle going on (Though that'd be something that i want which im sure will NEVER happen), whilst another time you killed him cause you countered one of his attacks and grappled him down, or another time you done this, that other time i done that, and then this time i done that... it'd make the game so much better to open the way the battles are done. Maybe add multiple trigs, this way your not always getting the same battle...
Etc. Etc. its just that DW is becoming EXTREMELY repetitive, and i would be so damn happy if they can do something to make it less repetitive, just a teency weency bit. You could say that with the kills thing about Lu Bu you can already do that, well not really cause although your finishing hit can be different, its still the same basic fighting going on.. The previous DW's werent so repetitive only cause it had LOTS to do and cause the DW formula was still new, as soon as DW4 and 5 came along you immediatly got that feeling that it was... well the same, for example after i done my first Mousu Rage on DW5 it became apparent that i was still playing the same game.


Sounds like your after a completely different game mistro - air combat, grapple moves :shock: there are these things in warriors games (eg Kanetsuge and Okuni in SW series do smash into air and combo attacks and Orochi technique characters simply need to press Special shoulder button to counter) but i think you want something more extravicant and a great deal more far fetched which would a) verse the game on being completely daft and even less realistic, b) result in longer time between sequals and less characters due to sheer volume of effort and time required to make characters with such diverse movesets, c) the applauded simple pick up and play combat for new users would have to be replaced with complicated button combos more akin to virtua fighter than DW which would be a grave mistake and d) the series would be getting so different it would be alienating those who enjoy the games for what they have been.

What are your veiws on DW6, strange you mention the system being the same on DW4 and DW5 when it was deliberatly kept the same yet dont mention the newest title which has in fact removed the combat from what it had been, changed because PEOPLE WANTED IT TO yet no one mentions it and instead attacks the system they removed anyway. I didnt like the Renbu system compared to the old one and i didnt like the new characters weapons and movesets compared to the old ones but looks like the harcore will lose out as Koei attempt (and not surprisingly fail to appease those who will never be satisfied to they have effectivelt a very different game from what it has been).

What about us who got the Warriors games for enjoying them for what they are? With the DW6 as the mark of the new era for DW games i simply cant see my love of the series continuing as its becoming something very diffent gamewise and only staying similar storywise. I didnt like DW6 but loved SW2 XL and Orochi which was the old system. I cant be alone in this, take the 360 release of Orochi 2 - a PS2 port on a NEXT GEN console yet i am very excited about its release and i cannot be the only one, DW7 on the other hand i am not even snooping about for info about as i had done on previous DW games.


Not asking for a change that big, since grapples would require a single button (though its not a necessary addition), and mid air combat would only require a bit of timing and to jump (X's and Squares). It would still be simple. Though my main want is for gameplay that isnt so repetitive, a simple way to do that would be to use the enviroment around the characters to create whole new combat styles. Maybe the addition of forcing you to time an attack or two would also change this.
When i said the enviroment an example could be this:
-Zhao Yun sees no way to escape Lu Bu who has cornered him at the wall of Hu Lao.
-Zhao Yun jumps towards wall.
-To latch onto the wall an extra X button must be pressed as his body comes into contact with said wall.
-He therefore latches on.
-From there he can move about the wall, as long as he is constantly moving he wont fall off.
-He has just created an escape route, but whats this, other soldiers know how to do the same thing and therefore you end up being stuck between Lu Bu and other soldiers who are all on the said wall, just below you are bloodthirsty soldiers, who are waiting for you to fall.
-Zhao Yun has to make a BIG decision now.
-He decides to continue charging right towards the soldiers.
-By Sprinting (Keeping finger on X button would do this, anyone wanna do a sprint jump simply presses X immediatly after letting go) towards them he gains the advantage.
-Zhao Yun decides he will press the block button (Which whilst sprinting would turn him into a boulder of a man, as he closes himself up and simply smashes through people).
-O Oh, one of them baddies had very heavy armour, Zhao Yun falls to what could be his death.
-OMG would you look at that Zhao Yun somehow gained his balance mid air, using the wall (Which lets say is covered with moss) he climbs back onto it (Latching back on) decides to jump up (A simple pressing of the X and Upward button at the same time) which gets him back on level with the armoured guy, and presses grapple button, he grabs on and from pressing a series of buttons has many grapples available to him.
-He decides to go for the one where he simply smashes the guys head onto the wall making the armour dude unconscious and fall off, however, if he doesnt press X quickly he will loose balance aswell.
-Zhao Yun didnt press it, and sadly falls to his death as Lu Bu catches up jumps down and beats the sh*t outta him.
-But whats this he survived, by successfully timing the block button he has managed to escape from one of Lu Bu's frightening attacks, not only that but by countering the attack Lu Bu is fended off some distance giving Zhao Yun space to run.
-But he decides that he wants to get rid off the big bad Bu right now and therefore runs towards him, by waiting for him from behind he waits and starts a series of attacks on Lu Bu, eventually leading to the point where Lu Bu is being smashed against a wall (Extra Damage) and Zhao Yun wins.
-Yuan Shao pretends the victory was his and tells everyone to attack.


Thats just a scenario (The o Ohs and all were not to patronise anyone they were there to make it interesting!)
But because this is not the same game the same battle will not take place the same way.
Scenario 2:
-Zhao Yun charges straight at Lu Bu on his red hare, by jumping straight at him, and pressing the grapple button he grabs onto Lu Bu in mid air and pulls him off, also uses him to break his own fall (Lots damage to Lu Bu already)
-He then latches himself to wall, and when Lu Bu gets up he presses X twice quickly and that allows him to dive off, and in mid air presses triangle to blast his way to Lu Bu, Lu Bu once again gets an ouchy.
-Gongsun Zan appears in the scene.
-And a beatdown commences on Lu Bu for two seconds.
-Lu Bu is too strong.
-Using a counterattack followed by a quick series of attacks Gongsun Zan is left dead.
-Turning around to Zhao Yun, Zhao Yun pisses his pants
-You run
-You run more, but due to running out of breathe sprinting is no longer possible, Lu Bu catches up.
-Using Counter after counter (which would require GOOD timing) you initially get Lu Bu's health down to red.
-a beat down commences and Lu Bu is dead.

Now thats simply adding enviroment interactions, counters, and grapples.
Right there you have a game which doesnt really move too far from the series (As any of those wouldnt really be necessary, but are still great additions) and the game is no longer repetitive, as you and Lu Bu can fight that battle a million times and never get the same results.
Bring that into Multiplayer and the same thing happens, you never get the same battle....
Nice new great game. New level of fun. Lets all applaud KOEI for once! (including reviewers and hardcore fans alike!) Ofcourse Grapples arent gonna be something people use against common troopers, but still would be used for generals (I sures hell would use it against Lu Bu).

Also my views on DW6 are:
-Renbu was a great new addition but made the game so easy it ruined it!
-The character designs were RUBBISH compared to previous installment character designs, only two characters looked better, Sun Jian and Liu Bei.
-Limited Mousu's
-Nothing to go get.
-DW6 is the worst so far.
-The best thing done was a show that KOEI might finally be moving the game forward.
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils ... - Louis Hector Berlioz
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Skode » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:31 pm

:lol: you have a great imagination but again its practically a different kind of game your looking for - grappling walls and sequenced button mashing to escape death IS EXACTLY how i would describe tomb raider, it would ruin Dynasty Warriors beacause a) the sight of Xu Zhu shimmying across a wall is plain stupid and for that matter any character doing so is nothing like how the games are supposed to go. Koei made some neat changes with characters Swimming and climbing ladders but these guys were in no way ever gonna get a look in for a future Tomb Raider or Ninja Gaiden game :lol: and b) i would get really pissed off fast if whilst trying to get a combo going the games flueidity stopped so i could press certain buttons in a sequence which on failing would no doubt lead to instant death.

Your thoughts on DW6 are very much akin to mine though Mistro but i think Talon has a much better set of ideas to future titles which would suit the series and not ruin it outright. They are also more simple to itegrate and not convert the series into a very different genre. Hes looking for better varied objectives to keep the battle diverse and more cutscenes to further develop the characters. I know that wont be enough for you mate as from the various topics id put you as the biggest Critic here but it sure as hell would be enough for me with some thrown in new battles, characters and musuo modes.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby MistroPain » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:03 pm

Oh for Xu Zhu ofcourse characters would require the skills to do such things...
Every character could possibly carry a trait... Speed would allow that character to do double jumps, mid air grapples, the capability to run across walls. Strength trait gives the character the capability to smash things open, e.g. closed gates for speedy characters would require you to wait for a group of men or a battering ram... Aswell as the fact that each attack of theres packs a punch, plus all counter attacks can be turned into full powerful grapels. Amongst other traits (which i cant think of right now).
About the fluidity thing i dont understand, what one or two buttons ruin the fluidity, countering requires timing, AI opponents will be purposly made not to counter moves just like that, but to only counter the ones which can obviously be countered (In other words dont go doing one of them long moves when the opponent is not dizzy or things such as).
The only reason i mensioned that form of interaction anyways was to simply give an idea of what would remove the repetitive nature... there could be other ways, but the repetitivness of this game is what is ruining it...
KOEI can at least come up with some UNIQUE missions, e.g. it'd be cool to play a mission where you gotta sneak into certain areas of a mission. It'd be especially kool to be able to do it in the middle of a battle, for example sneak into a garrison area (Somewhere where troops are pouring out off) and from inside start a fire. Amongst other cool DIY tactics. Wouldnt it be cool to go crouch in a bush and see that your allies notice your planning a ambush so they crouch in the bushes too. Or setting off your own boulder thingies, get to the top of a hill and start smacking down some Boulders (That'd be really funny, but if the traits was implemented maybe only Strength Characters could do it, or at least do it with ease).
So far the most unique mission was Lu Bu's betrayal IMO, and that wasnt unique at all!
I do agree that Talon's ideas should definatly be implemented (Especially the different objectives part) :D
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Skode » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:19 am

Well you have to Koei credit then as with Orochi they have Speed, Technique and Power classes for each character - maybe they could impliment that to all future titles....

Power, unphased when attacking by any form of arrows and also have incrediable strong special attacks.

Speed, can double jump and break out of a combo at a touch of a button to double jump and escape (must have when low on health vs the Lu Bus of Orochi)

Technique, you can use the special button INSTEAD of the charge one to do much stronger and faster versions of the charge at the cost of some musuo. Can also press special button when being attacked for an immediate counter attack.

There is other touches theyve added to the classes but i cant remember them as i type right now - they all fit the system and are welcomed by me personally. As for the repetitiveness im not sure whether your talking about the whole series or just the combat and enviroment, i really aint sure. If its the recurring style of fighting then i actually enjoy it and know what it is im paying for - i intend to buy Ninja Gaiden II and i know fine well it will be the exact same as its prequel save new story and enviroments but i couldnt care less and neither does anyone else ive come across.

Its a strange topic this overall as no-one seems to be content with games staying oh so similar but they ALMOST ALL ARE. Strategy games, Sports titles, Management Sims, Adventure games, FPS, Racing...the list goes on. People dont tend to mind them and those can do moan for change cringe when they get it and so the likes of Breath of Fire died on its arse due to pressure of change. Like i said before im a happy fan with things keeping the recurring battles and system leaving change for add ons be it new characters and modes but not whole sale ones. In fact the only one i have to say was needed was some kick ass graphical improvements given were on a next generation on consoles and DW6 done a pretty decent job of that.

I have also have to say i dont understand a jot of what you were on about in your above post about countering Mistro...you described that you would like to see a set of attacks you can counter with but not the AI - despite the fact you reguarly bemoan the AI, seems strange getting moves which the AI cannot use and instead just stand there and get skewered (something you complain about A LOT :lol: ). If you want to counter then hope they add the R1 counter attack they use in Orochi or simply block and then attack when they need to recover there composure from there failed attack like a lot of the enemy officers do in the game.

Now for unique missions yes, more like the 5 gates battle and Sun Ces battle with the phantoms as both fitted the book (some of the unique missions in DW6 were not - Sima Yi slayed Cao Cao in one :shock:) . Hell id be happy if they added in all the previous battles including those of DW5 XL. Not a stealth mission though, its not suitable for the game nor the novel its based on as there wasnt any stealth assasinations that i recall. Maybe you will get all you ask in the end Mistro with time but for me in not interesting in anything drastically different and would be very aggrevied to purchase there next game if they did so.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Kongming's Prodigy » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:03 am

Ranbir wrote:Most western developers don't seem to take that philosophy at all. Quality over quantity is the greatest mark for them. Otherwise we'd have seen a lot more sequels(Up to Starcraft 6:XL maybe!). But I think this is again a clear difference at how game development is looked at. It seems Koei see it, as you described, a factory line. I doubt many developers view it that way.

It's not as black and white as you make it to be. I can think of a number of titles sitting on my desktop by western developers that are absolutely atrocious. Clive Barker's Jericho comes to mind, or Timeshift. Even if the story and premise for these games are very unique from other titles, the fact that they are so underdeveloped and utterly bland makes it a chore to play through. Although my latest owned installment of Koei, Warriors Orochi, sits at around the same level as these garbage games, I have to say that I enjoy playing Koei's rehash a bit more, but maybe that's a personal preference thing? Certainly you can't say that Japanese developers are garbage, when titles such as Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, and Zelda, hold the crown in gaming across the globe, despite the number of sequels. The only thing western developers have that come close this level of success are GTA and Halo, which the latter I have no respect for. Of course that's not considering cult classics like Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment, which I have nothing but the upmost respect for. :wink:

Only Koei and a few other developers churn out the same games over and over again, and I think it's way too harsh to blame it purely on the fact that they are Japanese. I still think that, financially, Koei and US sports titles have the same goal, just that for some reason, Koei's abuse is a bit more obvious.


P.S. It would be so much better if DW games had expansion titles that weren't consistently Xtreme Legends or Empires. The fact that the titles are the same makes it even more obvious that Koei has no creativity. The problem is, sometimes these expansions are actually quite different from each other, which is a pity. And btw, what kind of a f**ktard names a game "Xtreme Legends". That actually has to be the worst title I have ever seen. It's that kind of cheese factor that only 8 yr old kids might find "cool". As if it wasn't embarrassing enough to be playing Dynasty Warriors, I actually have to hide these titles from friends and girlfriends for fear of being labeled as something like an immature village idiot.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Ranbir » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:40 am

It's not as black and white as you make it to be. I can think of a number of titles sitting on my desktop by western developers that are absolutely atrocious. Clive Barker's Jericho comes to mind, or Timeshift....Certainly you can't say that Japanese developers are garbage, when titles such as Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, and Zelda, hold the crown in gaming across the globe, despite the number of sequels. The only thing western developers have that come close this level of success are GTA and Halo, which the latter I have no respect for. Of course that's not considering cult classics like Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment, which I have nothing but the upmost respect for.


Of course I can. Because Jericho and Timeshift aren't the 20th release in 5 years or something. We're talking about frequency of releasing the exact same story. MGS is only at it's 4th, not 20th. Same with RE and Zelda. But then they show dependance on an old base system which begins to show its age at these points. Valve, Blizzard, Black Isle, Stardock, Firaxis, Elemental rise above that much further.

So yes, I will continue to apply it as a common staple of them because it is so commonly obvious in their comic books and cartoons. Quantity takes priority over quality. It is something that happens more often in the East than it does in the West. The lack of detail in their comics are argued that the text takes priority. Really? Then they can release a BOOK, instead.

I still think that, financially, Koei and US sports titles have the same goal, just that for some reason, Koei's abuse is a bit more obvious.


Because Koei is dishing out the repetitive linear story. Sports titles are sandbox in nature, each version working to ensure even great variability and realism in experiences. My Master League experience in Pro Evo 5 would be different to my ML experience in Pro Evo 6. My experience of Hu Lao Gate in 3 is not that much different in 5. Because I almost know, by heart, what the set pieces for that battle are, how they come about and the changes made between do little to affect the outcome or my ease of reaching it.

I can not find any other game series that is simply giving you the exact same story you experienced in the game before, nor in such frequency.

Question: How much more satisfying would you have found the series if say:

DW2 provided an indepth, detailed musou mode covering the Yellow Turban Rebellion.
DW3 provided an indepth, detailed musou mode covering the coalition against Dong and the antics of Lu Bu
DW4 provided an indepth, detailed musou mode covering Cao Cao's rise to power and Liu Bei doing stuff
DW5 provided an indepth, detailed musou mode covering whatever happened after that, blah blah.
And so forth?

Proper sequels, we're actually getting to enjoy moving forward in the story, better sense in the process of introducing new characters and less fatigue in the gameplay itself(that hasn't changed much until Renbu) rather than having ourselves reboot all in the name of a few cosmetic changes.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Kongming's Prodigy » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:29 am

I can't argue with you about Koei's rehashing because that's fact. I also like the idea of having the game cover specific timeframes in greater detail.

I don't like how you blame the Japanese, however. As if Westerners are afraid to milk a franchise. A few movie series come to mind immediately. Or maybe you just hate anime, which is fine, I guess. Anime is meant to appeal to a mass market with low IQ fangirls, so resources are devoted to dragging a product out as long as possible. In a way, Koei's doing the same thing. As long as the consumers enjoy it, why stop, right? :roll: A few good developers really do put the best into their games like you said, indeed Valve and Blizzard. However, don't make it seem as if Western gaming is the only thing that's pure and good. In fact, I hold similar feelings for the PC gaming scene among Western developers that has had its purity washed down for the mainstream college crackhead market (not that I haven't had my fair share being part of it, of course :P ). It's all relative, and blaming the Japanese seems shallow.

I still say a dozen mediocre products, or even eight dozen, is still better than one single flop like Jericho. It might seem as if Koei's commiting daylight robbery, but it's not as if they're FORCEFULLY taking your money away. I can choose to play one DW game like DW3 and be satisfied with it, whereas games like Jericho and Turok are just exercises in failure. I don't believe Koei's games are THAT bad, I'm just sad that they refuse to turn their series around.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Ranbir » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:36 am

It's got nothing to do with love/hate. It is just something that happens more often from East.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby talon1579 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:09 pm

Mistro, from what you describe you seem to want to put Ninja Gaiden into Dynasty Warriors. And someone else mentioned Tomb Raider. There's also God of War and Prince and Persia if you want the "one-vs-many" style of game. Its the simplicity of DW's controls that make it so engaging.

Dynasty Warriors strikes a nice balance between one vs many and many vs many. All that is needed is a tiny bit of strategy, to allow you to set the destination of your forces. DW6 has made a good improvement to the AI (often forgotten with all the complaints about characters), but a number of problems still exist: firstly, you spend much fo your time dashing around on a horse rescuing your allies as they press the attack. Only in a few levels (Guan Du and castle defence levels) does the enemy really push you.

Setting a strategy of defence, and having a taunt button would be fun - if an enemy general fell for it, he would become powered up, but you could separate him from his forces and overwhelm him with numbers. The same thing could happen to your generals - forcing you to rescue them. What would be really fun is have it happen to you: an enemy general would taunt you, and if it succeeds, the computer would sieze control and force you to run into the trap (but, as you are enraged, you get stat boosts).

I'd also like to see in in-game command system - DW5 empires tried it but failed, as you ended up going into the menu constantly, and the officers were crap at following orders. Instead, how about holding L2 and pressing buttons gives different commands:

L2+up: nearest officer - assist me
L2+down: nearest officer (to commander) - assist commander
L2+left: change mode to aggressive (press attack, all officers)
L2+right: change mode to passive (hold back, all officers)
double tap L2: revert to normal mode (general targets - all officers advance slowly and hold bases for a time)

Earlier I mentioned my "beginning of battle" strategy idea. For this, your force can be divided into 3 groups (minimum 1 officer) - and they can be sent down one of the paths for that level (most levels have left, right and centre). During battle, the state of each force can be seen by 3 vertical bars - they'd decrease as their troop levels did. The clour of the bar would show the current state.

L2+x: force 1: toggle between attack, defend and normal
L2+O: force 2: toggle between attack, defend and normal
L2+square: force 3: toggle between attack, defend and normal

So you'd have a choice of whether to manage your troops as one group or three. To make the system more involving, how about only being able to issue orders while in a friendly base?
Last edited by talon1579 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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