Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Koei’s Dynasty Warriors game series. Discuss and enjoy!

Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby talon1579 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:40 pm

Although we keep blaming Koei - isn't it Omega FOrce as the developer who we should be blaming? Perhaps Koei should switch devs. If you take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Force

It seems Omega Force do nothing but make DW and SW.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby MistroPain » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:32 pm

True Talon, but as they are the producers they are meant to tell Omega to do something about it, especially since its their flagship title, if this game is ruined then thats KOEI loosing most all its got other then a few other series of games, some aint enough to rely on, after SW and DW its ROTK or nothing IMO...
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Kongming's Prodigy » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:57 pm

talon1579 wrote:Although we keep blaming Koei - isn't it Omega FOrce as the developer who we should be blaming? Perhaps Koei should switch devs. If you take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Force

It seems Omega Force do nothing but make DW and SW.

I think Omega is an in-house developer.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Ranbir » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:09 am

James, I actually think they aren't afraid at all. Infact, they must have balls the size of watermelons to do what they do and get away with it.

Not only that, I think this is common in the majority of other mediums. Look at their comics; No colour, limited detail. Look at their cartoons, low quality animation, episodes reaching hundreds.

Just isn't gravy.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Kongming's Prodigy » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:28 am

Ranbir wrote:James, I actually think they aren't afraid at all. Infact, they must have balls the size of watermelons to do what they do and get away with it.

Not only that, I think this is common in the majority of other mediums. Look at their comics; No colour, limited detail. Look at their cartoons, low quality animation, episodes reaching hundreds.

Just isn't gravy.

Maybe we're just too used to our hearty steaks that sushi seems all too light for the same price. :wink:

Seriously speaking, I doubt Koei really puts much thought into changing or not changing DW. Since the same formula has worked for 8 years without any downward trend, there's hardly incentive to do anything about it. DW titles are rolling off of an assembly line, so to speak, but you can't blame the Japanese. What about sports titles that roll out every year here in the US? Utter garbage. I'd imagine any company would jump to be in a position where they can get paid without having to put much thought into their product.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Ranbir » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:11 am

It is great Koei covered the three kingdoms era, but to continually focus on the same period in such a short space of time. That same Hu Lao Gate with that same Lu Bu with the same Dong Zhuo doing all the same typical things. It would be as if Die Hard 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, etc, all used the script from the first. Same building, same plot, maybe a different camera angle, a slight change in make-up and costume, but it's still Hans Gruber taking control of Nakatomi Plaza.

And yeah, they've made money out of it...but then that begs the question; How the hell have we let them get away with this?


...you can't blame the Japanese. What about sports titles that roll out every year here in the US? ...I'd imagine any company would jump to be in a position where they can get paid without having to put much thought into their product.


I totally can. Sport titles are annual(lower frequency than Koei) and sandbox in nature. There is no repetitive linearity expected in the game. You know, like that freakin' Oath at the garden for the bajillion time.

Most western developers don't seem to take that philosophy at all. Quality over quantity is the greatest mark for them. Otherwise we'd have seen a lot more sequels(Up to Starcraft 6:XL maybe!). But I think this is again a clear difference at how game development is looked at. It seems Koei see it, as you described, a factory line. I doubt many developers view it that way.

It boils down to this though: The only way we can force change is to stop paying for the same trollop that Koei is dishing out to us, until then we can only expect Hu Lao Gate and having to face Lu Bu...we'll no doubt get that cut scene of him and the brothers too.

Wallet voting is all we have. Look at EA's reversal on the idiotic DRM measure.


edit: Remind me, Samaurai Warriors 2 actually pushed forward along the timeline, right?
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Skode » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:41 pm

people forget that there arent the same surprises new because after theyve finished a second Koei warriors title (maybe even after there first) they will have got the grasp for how these battle fare (take the yellow turbans opening - we know what happens in it and that can change for the game unless from an individual character stand point but not an overall one as thats how it is with the novel the game is based upon).

Neither can we forget that these battle that keep re-apparing are integral to the story and time progression for the game as so if people are so sick of Hu Lao persay be happy if they completely ommited it, i know i wouldnt and i sure as hell am sure new gamers to the series would want them there to know what the hell is going on. Most of those who frequent the series did so on the basis of having NOT known there chinese history or having had read the novel but on a case of after playing the games a lot gone out and done so, we all know the script but that cant be avoided instead you play for the enjoyment of being in these battles (take the Titanic, one of the hugest success stories ever at the box office but did anyone going really not know the boat was gonna hit an iceberg and sink at the end of it :lol: )

As far as im concerned "if it aint broke dont fix it" and would be more than happy to stick with the series as long as they update with more characters, battle, weapons and other such "cosmetic" improvements. I played through DW6 and there some neat changes but for me it was the worst of the series since DW2, we had fewer battles, less characters and certainly less musuo modes and the reason why is simple - people wanted a new engine, a new combat system etc and they got them but sullied it for everyone else. Funny how the same people us old skool DW lovers got shafted for are still complaining they aint happy.

For me if Koei dont ruin my experience of there games then i will continue to and happpily at that pay my hard earned cash to get there future titles. I dont want a drastically different sequal or 2, if they change what made the series so fundamentally fun for me then why should i pay for something i dont want. Same gos for those who aint happy, if the dont want a samish game then dont buy it either just dont go complaining about it for months as whenever people get what they want they always seem to still be unimpressed and want even more - there never happy, the old skoll DW fans are - begs the question "just who should Koei care about most, the happy loyal hardcore who have funded there wages for so long or the breathless critics who will probably never be won over"
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby talon1579 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:43 pm

It boils down to this though: The only way we can force change is to stop paying for the same trollop that Koei is dishing out to us,


They won't change the formula, they'll just stop making the game. Games cost so much to develop now, producers have to be sure of sales. That's why many games are so similar, they can't take risks. Koei wouldn't change formats without releasing DW7. Anyway, they've stopped making Dynasty Tactics and Kessen now (although they did try to change with Bladestorm).
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby MistroPain » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:35 pm

Well Skode if we dont complain nothing will happen... Therefore complaining is actually the best thing we can do... You also said that you dont wanna pay for something new that isnt what you wanted, well there are many additions that can be added to the game without changing the game to the point that its THAT different...
Example: Change the fighting a bit to the point where when you play this battle that time You killed Lu Bu in mid air with lets say a mid air battle going on (Though that'd be something that i want which im sure will NEVER happen), whilst another time you killed him cause you countered one of his attacks and grappled him down, or another time you done this, that other time i done that, and then this time i done that... it'd make the game so much better to open the way the battles are done. Maybe add multiple trigs, this way your not always getting the same battle...
Etc. Etc. its just that DW is becoming EXTREMELY repetitive, and i would be so damn happy if they can do something to make it less repetitive, just a teency weency bit. You could say that with the kills thing about Lu Bu you can already do that, well not really cause although your finishing hit can be different, its still the same basic fighting going on.. The previous DW's werent so repetitive only cause it had LOTS to do and cause the DW formula was still new, as soon as DW4 and 5 came along you immediatly got that feeling that it was... well the same, for example after i done my first Mousu Rage on DW5 it became apparent that i was still playing the same game.
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Re: Thoughts From a Once Hardcore Fan

Unread postby Skode » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:32 pm

MistroPain wrote:Well Skode if we dont complain nothing will happen... Therefore complaining is actually the best thing we can do... You also said that you dont wanna pay for something new that isnt what you wanted, well there are many additions that can be added to the game without changing the game to the point that its THAT different...
Example: Change the fighting a bit to the point where when you play this battle that time You killed Lu Bu in mid air with lets say a mid air battle going on (Though that'd be something that i want which im sure will NEVER happen), whilst another time you killed him cause you countered one of his attacks and grappled him down, or another time you done this, that other time i done that, and then this time i done that... it'd make the game so much better to open the way the battles are done. Maybe add multiple trigs, this way your not always getting the same battle...
Etc. Etc. its just that DW is becoming EXTREMELY repetitive, and i would be so damn happy if they can do something to make it less repetitive, just a teency weency bit. You could say that with the kills thing about Lu Bu you can already do that, well not really cause although your finishing hit can be different, its still the same basic fighting going on.. The previous DW's werent so repetitive only cause it had LOTS to do and cause the DW formula was still new, as soon as DW4 and 5 came along you immediatly got that feeling that it was... well the same, for example after i done my first Mousu Rage on DW5 it became apparent that i was still playing the same game.


Sounds like your after a completely different game mistro - air combat, grapple moves :shock: there are these things in warriors games (eg Kanetsuge and Okuni in SW series do smash into air and combo attacks and Orochi technique characters simply need to press Special shoulder button to counter) but i think you want something more extravicant and a great deal more far fetched which would a) verse the game on being completely daft and even less realistic, b) result in longer time between sequals and less characters due to sheer volume of effort and time required to make characters with such diverse movesets, c) the applauded simple pick up and play combat for new users would have to be replaced with complicated button combos more akin to virtua fighter than DW which would be a grave mistake and d) the series would be getting so different it would be alienating those who enjoy the games for what they have been.

What are your veiws on DW6, strange you mention the system being the same on DW4 and DW5 when it was deliberatly kept the same yet dont mention the newest title which has in fact removed the combat from what it had been, changed because PEOPLE WANTED IT TO yet no one mentions it and instead attacks the system they removed anyway. I didnt like the Renbu system compared to the old one and i didnt like the new characters weapons and movesets compared to the old ones but looks like the harcore will lose out as Koei attempt (and not surprisingly fail to appease those who will never be satisfied to they have effectivelt a very different game from what it has been).

What about us who got the Warriors games for enjoying them for what they are? With the DW6 as the mark of the new era for DW games i simply cant see my love of the series continuing as its becoming something very diffent gamewise and only staying similar storywise. I didnt like DW6 but loved SW2 XL and Orochi which was the old system. I cant be alone in this, take the 360 release of Orochi 2 - a PS2 port on a NEXT GEN console yet i am very excited about its release and i cannot be the only one, DW7 on the other hand i am not even snooping about for info about as i had done on previous DW games.
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