New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Koei’s Dynasty Warriors game series. Discuss and enjoy!

How many new females do you want?

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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:47 pm

Lady Wu wrote:The feminist part of me wants to say that it's all because the chauvinist pigs at Koei can't get out of the "women should be obedient wives" mentality. Therefore, when a female character is identified as someone's wife, they are nothing but someone's wife. That's why I was thinking, if they can't break out of that kind of thinking, perhaps they'd fare better with a woman who's not so identified as being a wife first and foremost.

:lol: When you're dealing with a company most likely run by middle-aged Japanese men -- well, that's not exactly fair. Some middle-aged Japanese men have not been threatened by the idea of the independent, strong-willed female character, though it is slightly creepy that he has been making his independent, strong-willed female characters progressively younger and younger.

Maybe we should ask Koei to draft Studio Ghibli's writing staff to write DW7! It would then probably have many more anti-war overtones (probably a good thing), strong female characters (definitely a good thing) and perhaps Zhuge Liang's newest prototype flying machine, piloted by Sun Shangxiang with Liu Bei riding tandem. But don't be expecting the Qiao sisters to get any less creepily Lolita-like...

Anyway, this is me completely fantasising (about my favourite Japanese movie studio writing for one of my favourite game series, not about the Qiao sisters!) and getting way off-topic, but I still wanted to throw that out there.
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:33 pm

Koei is definitely capable of making strong willed women, many of the women in Samurai Warriors are quite free spirited, Ginchiyo is truly strong willed, she plays second fiddle to no one, being the respective leader of the Tachibana of course. Aside from her we have the endlessly playful Okuni, who chases basically every man she sees, and continually tries to bring women back to her temple. Quite a unique character, especially for Koei.

While Kunoichi is bound to Yukimura, it is only lord to vassal, and nothing to deal with her being a woman. Kunoichi is also a very free spirited character, hardly taking anything seriously, but viewing it all as a game. Nene might be a wife, but she is a very commanding force, in that she controls Hideyoshi, not the other way around.

Gracia would have been more interesting if she weren't so bubbly, she has an interesting premise, running away from home to see the world, and teaming up with Magoichi, but that's really as far as her character development goes. She had too bubbly of a personality I feel to be taken seriously at all.

Ina could be more of a dynamic character IF they added her husband, (and Yukimura's Brother) the one or two lines they have together is very... vague, especially since I don't recall Yukimura even saying anything to his brother in Samurai Warriors 2.

Oichi is perhaps the least care free character, basically playing the traditional role of wife to Nagamasa, Noh was interesting in 1, but they made her into too much of a servant (and a harlot...) in 2.
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:23 pm

I guess my point about historical women has two parts. First, inventing a person from scratch would give them more room to create a good story, rather than having to be bound by historical expectations. We all complain about Xing Cai (who's pretty much fictional), but she's a lot better than the Qiaos in terms of character and story (she didn't have to tag along with Liu Shan all the time, and she was allowed to have this little bit of a thing with Guan Ping).

I can see your point that maybe without a husband (which would have to be fictional). Was going to suggest doing someone who had an affair but they have Diao Chan and she is far from her potential, though often done well with her romance of Lu Bu. However could koei manage to make up a story with such a woman when they can't with either a near blank slate or one with a lot of story behind her? Prepare for a long long rant

Xing Cai was as near as a blank book character as they could get. What do we know
1) She marries Liu Shan, he has an affair.
2) Her father is Zhang Fei and met her mother in woods. Her mother is of the Xiahou clan
3) She dies at Wu Zhang or lives to see Jin but then koei and death dates are not reliable
4) Zhuge Liang recommends her in the novel

If they are looking for relations as friends, they have a ton that they can pick up based on that or their husbands friends, or go for something completely different. I wasn't such a fan of the Guan Ping romance thing but if they can't make a good thing out of as blank a slate as that then why would having Lulu the made up be any different? Not just Xing Cai, the Qiao's have four things (married to husbands, their father, Cao Cao fancies them and the Chi Bi thing), if you want they could use the Xa folk legend where the two drift apart and she kills Zhou Yu (well maybe not kill), or they can chose not to do that. They made two annoying girls. Yue Ying, again husband, local legends about her courtship, smart and dieing words to her son yet koei went for the safe option. They have had near blank slates and done badly before. They have had filled out characters and done badly, I'm not sure a completely blank character is going to change that flaw.

The SW woman are good from memory and from what else I have heard, Kessen 2 was erratic with woman, Kessen 3 was very good. Ok they are obsessed with romance, that in itself isn't a problem when, like Kessen 3, it is well written but koei takes all the fun out of it by making the DW ones not romantic but have them follow around puppy mode. They could use better storyline writers on the whole and certainly when with woman. Yes have romance, yes allow the couples to flesh each other out (have cutscenes off battlefield maybe) but don't let it be the sole reason for their existence.

Da Qiao: Ok all we know is her husband was Sun Ce, Cao Cao was interested in her in the novel and of her father, he was a zombie who supported Liu Bei marring SSX :wink: Or a former Han offical who had been vigorous as a general, investigator, avenger and a high ranked Minister but had seen it's doom coming and resigned in frustration, died a poor man. Sister Xa Qiao, Lu Xun is in law (or is it Xa who has Lu Xun). Koei makes her a puppy follower/mourner

What story can koei make from it? Her father dies during the Yellow Turban revolt years, Da mourns , she can have memories of a happy childhood, she is left in the hands of the nearby Sun Jian. Sun Ce helps comfort her, whirl wind romance, fight together, she gets pregnant and then he returns home from hunting, horribly horribly wounded. Touching death bed scene and while this would have an effect on her, koei must not make it her obsession the rest of the game. If they let her be pregnant then she can hate Quan for his not very good treatment of her son or they can ignore that aspect. What do they do from here? It is an open sandbox, she can be fighting for whatever reason they wish, she can be friends with whoever they want in Wu. Just avoid the whole "Oh Sun Ce, how will I ever live!"

I think it might be amusing/intresting if Cao Cao meets her at Chi Bi and hits on her once or twice from then on, maybe even have Da tempted to go to Wei but that might be too much? The thought amuses me none the less.

Diao Chan: We know she is a servant of Wang Yun who is treated like a daughter, we know she sleeps with Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo and deliberately plays them both to ensure they separate and Lu Bu kills Dongy. Her fate after that is unknown, in folklore generally she dies due to Guan Yu after she is either sent to seduce him, is given as a gift by Fei or the three brothers fight over her. For Koei, she has been one of the stronger woman, playing on Lu Bu's feelings and it is Lu Bu who is the puppy follower, something Chen Gong remarks on in DW 6 (thought that was a good cut scene), they made her a Han loyalist in DW 6 and didn't they have one DW where she dumps Lu Bu and vanishes? Generally though, they have a love blossom between them and they do that one well.

Can it be improved? I like the direction where she has a degree of innocence but she is more then happy to play on feelings, she is more cynical and manipulative to get what she wants then even most of the males :wink: . Not so keen on Han loyalist angle or almost obsessed with her father's dream however she needs motive and Han loyalism a decent one. One thing I would have is have Dong treat her well, not as well as Lu Bu but I think Dong could use some fleshing out as more then an incompetent evil fatso.

SSX: Well we know she is of the Sun clan, liked training, married Liu Bei, kidnapped Liu Shan. Closer to Chan then Qiao's in terms of quality of storyline though her personality can be a little annoying. Thought Dw5 where she fought Liu Bei was better then Dw6 six where, after a good start, she goes and insults Sun Quan for daring to fight Shu. :roll: Ok love Liu Bei, sure let her get to know him before Chi Bi by other battles alongside him, sure have her on Shu's sides at Yi Ling but make it more conflicted about the fighting her brother and why is Liu Bei the only one she seems to know in Shu? Glad they got rid of the trying to prove woman are men's equal

Xa Qiao: See Da Qiao's first paragraph, replace Sun Ce for Zhou Yu. There is a folk legend where their relationship deteriorates and she has affair then plots to kill her husband with her lover boy.

The trick would be to keep her away from being too similar from her sisters storyline which is difficult. Her romance with Zhou Yu can be slower and why not borrow that folk legend, have a period where he is away too long and she gets unhappy, she can either regret never having made things up with him when he dies, or they can have made things up. In her story, have Zhou Yu injured as he was against Cao Ren and struggle to recover fully from it. She could hate Cao Ren because of it? Mostly though, she is a blank slate and they can do whatever they want with her before and after her time with Zhou Yu.

Xing Cai: Blank slate. Not puppy dog but didn't think she was well used in DW5. Even without marriage, she has Xiahou's, the three brothers and her cousins, maybe even the Cao's, to have relations with as friends or enemies. They can pick and choose there who they want her to be friends with, they can make it awkward for her fighting for Shu against her family. Then there is Liu Shan, might be intresting seeing a special NPC with no interest in fighting, could be quite a contract between her and him, add in his affair with Lady Hu while the Shu army is away fighting. The trick will be, as with the others, to help bring out a different to the couple without making it puppy dog or just all about the couple. Plus I like Liu Shan :P

Yue Ying: She marries Zhuge Liang, in the novel her father helps Lu Xun escape Zhuge Liang's trap, she was said to be very smart, studied a lot, dies soon after Zhuge Liang. Folk tale about how the two got married. Koei half does the tale but makes it a contest, fair enough but prefer tale through cutscene I think. Insults Zhen Ji, has juggernauts but mixture of puppy and comes across as inferior to Zhuge Liang. The Kessen one was odd...

Aside from the home life (father should hate Zhuge :P ), why not allow her to come up with plans? The problem for Shu is, including Jiang Wei, they have four smart advisor's and if Zhuge Liang is going to be the awesome one, he is always going to get the plans. Leave Jiang Wei out of things till they expand to later and find a way to share things among all three. She should also get more friends, more then Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong plus any woman. I have heard an idea of Yue Ying not admiring Liu Bei at first, something on those lines might work, just give her some space to be herself.

Zhen Ji: Well we know her tale well enough, add in rumours of Cao Cao and Zhi having hots for her yet koei may have kicked themselves. By making her arrogant ice queen, they damage their chances if they ever want to go for her historic ending as Guo may well get too much of a fan base. Even so, why does she never mention Yuan Xi? Or the Yuan's? She serves them for a time so they not have some relevance? Could use some friends in Wei and I wouldn't mind relations between her and Pi going badly but she needs to be her own woman, not just Pi's wife.

Zhu Rong: Well she was independent :P thought the relationship there was sweet and given the Nanman is small, not sure what else they can do

They have characters with potential, they can have them friends with anyone in the kingdom and they still struggle. Get the writers of Kessen 3 to handle their stories and this wouldn't be a problem so much. Your right though, they need to break out of their own mental block

Just if koei can muck up some of these woman so badly, I fear what making up a character would be like. :wink:

Sun Luban would be an annoying version of SSX.

I'm no lawyer but that would be a crime against humanity.
Last edited by Dong Zhou on Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:33 pm

Quite an interesting analysis on the females in Dynasty Warriors... but I must agree, their angle on women is more or less, completely mistaken. While Samurai Warriors makes the women dynamic and interesting, the majority of Dynasty Warriors women are relatively bland. Musou Orochi does give them room to develop a bit, well, one at least, in 2 most of the kingdoms have reformed, but in 1 there's only two or three couples together, which allows the girls a bit of a chance to exist for more then their husbands.

In any case... these are some class A ideas! Why not submit them over at the Koei forums? I've read that they may actually pay attention to their own forums, or Koei Warriors, if memory serves right. I wish I could add more to the discussion, but I feel you should have support for these changes. Koei has changed it's tune in the past, when it comes to fan support, (sort of...)
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby crosswindcrab » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:11 am

Its not just the DW woman that are bland compared to the SW woman. Pretty much the whole DW cast are one trick ponies. DW6 did a good job of making some of the characters believable, but made others worse (SSX).

Yue Ying actually seems pretty decent in her current "support" role. It really seems to fit her character. It's just that the other girls get lumped in the same kinda role which makes her seem redundant.

Zhen Ji's Legend stage in DW4 is something that should be in every one of her musou modes. Having her actually face off against Cao Pi and then decide to choose him over her current husband was cool. She also had some relation with Zhang He and Cao Ren which they seemed to remove for some reason.

The two Qiaos are almost worhtless as they are now. I wished they still had the level where they escaped Dong Zhou.

Xing Cai was cool in the way she was portrayed in DW5. Her personality did come off a little bland, but its what they did with her that was cool. From her first scene where Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei were bring her to battle to the end where she made a new oath with Guan Ping, she was one of the few characters in DW5 that wasn't A.) For Lord X! or B.) Chaos!!!!

SSX was always cool until DW6. I liked her personality in the previous games alot better. That and she had the family first mentality rather than another person worshiping Liu Bei. Keep her old DW/OW personality.

I always loved Zhu Rong's interactons with her husband. They're quite the comdeic pair. If they do bring them back they need not change them.

Diao Chan has gone all over the place. From her DW3XL musou where she basically told Lu Bu to shove off, to being his "puppy dog" as has been said before, to her DW6 incarnation. Ideally they should keep her interseting and at the same time use her to help color Lu Bu. They're on the right track right now, but I doubt they can keep it up for another game.
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:14 pm

Might do that though not sure an appropriate thread on warriors or on koei.

One problem storyline writers might have is that they have to fit all this in 5-7 stages. Take Da, if we use the Turbans, Dong, against Liu Biao, taking of Wu, that is 4 stages taken up, one pre Cao vs Quan (unless they insert a tribe one, there seems only one battle for that), then it leaves limited time for any Cao Cao hitathon. :wink: Going to be difficult to fit in the romance with Ce perhaps with only 3/4 stages yet can't allow it to take up everything. None the less, must do better.

Going further into Xing Cai's storyline (also brief idea's on Yue Ying mixed in), she starts off at Hanzhong and meets Xiahou Yuan for the first time. Then he dies and Zhang Fei has to console her, talking about how he met her mother in the woods and fell in love at first sight, how the marriage was arranged and how such times cause such family separation. In Fei's own way of course :wink: Perhaps have them bury him. Then a mini stage/cut scene where SSX kidnaps Liu Shan, why she does is up to koei (marriage collapses in this version or tricked by evil Quan?), Yun (with jokes about doing this again), Fei and Xing Cai chase after her. When Cai wins, there is a touching cut scene as Shan and SSX say goodbye for the last time and as the Shu contingent travel home, Shan having thanked Yun and Fei but seemed shy with Cai, Cai goes to comfort a depressed looking Shan (perhaps with Fei and Yun encouraging her), he has lost another mother figure after all and might be feeling a little embarrassed. Budding romance starts there, if they want to make it awkward for two young figures then that's fine, MGS4 after all has an awkward romance bit but avoid making Shan look like a fool/idiot during those romance scenes.

Insert Jing where she is with Guan Ping and Guan Yu, though romance with Shan is continuing, she is sent to Cheng Du after battle before the Wu army comes up and kills the Guan's. Zhang Fei dies and Xing Cai is distraught, Shan tries to comfort and wants her to stay with him and Zhuge Liang at Cheng Du but she goes anyway, gets to kill the murderers of her father plus an argument with SSX over leaving Shu and Shan. Come to think of it, why not Yue Ying be adviser for those one? Ignored adviser perhaps but able to come up with counters to Wu's efforts? Anyway Wu doesn't crumble and Cai feels better for having got the anger out, though she still hurts. Welcome home by a relived, Yun, Zhuge and Liu Shan. The happy couple marry and she goes onto the NC's. Yue Ying will act as the person in charge of the seige stages or sections, if not in actual command then in practical one as she is the one inventive enough to break the walls, something they should have Zhuge struggle with in an earlier stage. Anyway Cai, aside from anything with Cao Pi, can make her own friends and story here though they should have relationship on the ropes at one point when she returns home to find Liu Shan had an affair while she was away. Or, if an affair would be too adult, have some other thing she gets upset about like his sightseeing, they can eventually get back together but overall the NC's should be about her with Liu Shan being part of her, not all of her. The thought crosses my mind that she might begrudge Zhuge Liang having so much of Liu Shan's time but after more thought, wouldn't go with that direction.

Zhen Ji: Stage limit may be her main issue but more thoughts on storyline. Allow her 2 or more stages under the Yuan's, allow her to get on with Yuan Shao (I can see him as a father figure) and witness the brother's quarreling. Relations between her and Xi should decline but without Xi being too much of a jerk. In the early battles, perhaps one should have Cao Cao as an ally and he could treat her well. At Guan Du, Cao Pi spots her and tries to chat her up (with better lines then last time), first she refuses. Yuan Shao dies, quarrels get worse and Xi gets colder towards her, Cao Pi tries again and his sweet words sway her over. From there, they can go several paths. Is she treated coldly at first? Is it just Cao Pi intrested in her or does the kinder but drunker Zhi and Cao Cao himself have eyes for her? If yes to that, how does she feel during the heir struggle? How does she feel about loss of Yuan Xi and news of his death? Who does she befriend? Besides the obvious one of Zhang He.

I wouldn't say no to losing the ice queen act off the battlefield as then we could have a tragic ending based on history, losing out to a rival for Pi's affections and killed (ok so it was "suicide" historically but not sure about doing that and not unheard of for disgraced woman to suddenly die but never get murderer). by her husband. This may be too close to her husband though overall so if we do go down these storylines, make sure the other moments show her as an individual
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:17 am

Well, they botched the historical characters and they botched the almost-historical ones (Diaochan, Xing Cai), so the only logical solution is for them to try a blank slate. 8-)
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:27 am

Quite interesting ideas... I have to admit being very upset when Xing Cai had Struggle for Han Zhong, in that Xing Cai nor Xiahou Yuan had anything special to say to one another, he's only her Uncle! Your idea will at least put that into focus. I always felt that a very important part (or at least what should have been...) a rather large point for character development, her character basically stops developing after Fan Castle, but there was much more to be used. She hardly cares that she had lost her father, a passing footnote in her "thoughts" was all. Her story was far too focused on Guan Ping, then Liu Chan. Your idea makes her a much more dynamic character, DW6 managed this with a few characters (Diao Chan, Zhuge Liang and the Three Leaders, for instance), I see no reason why they couldn't manage this again.

Zhen Ji I feel is completely characterized wrong, but now that Koei has made that her personality it does seem difficult to reverse... Personally I would have always thought as Yuan Xi as a very important NPC in her story. In the book he plays the minor mannered middle man, he at first tries to make peace with his warring brethren, (if memory serves right...) in which I always imagined him a very submissive advisor sort. Could be part of the reason Zhen Ji leaves Yuan Xi, since he could be portrayed as a very indecisive person. After which, we can get into the crazy love triangles that legend has brought up.

Cao Zhi the intelligent, but rather irresponsible youth, Cao Cao the domineering father, and Cao Pi, the rather cold one of the three. (I hated her ending in 5, completely far too off of Cao Pi's character to say such a thing) Then of course her friends, the games seem to have her acquainted will with Cao Ren, but it seems no more then a doting uncle, Zhang He would be a very nice touch as well, both served in Yuan Shao's force for a time. Xiahou Yuan is a very supportive person in DW5, a character trait which I think fits him extremely well, a very friendly guy, not to mention he is friends with Zhang He, therefore having him just be a buddy to Zhen Ji isn't too far out of left field.

Though I believe that's as far as friends should go, I think though that Sima Yi should dislike her from the start, (not really sure of the reason for that...), and quite unsure of the direction taken, if she does have an affair with Cao Zhi, that could be the reason for her undoing and historical ending, a final stage, where Cao Zhi and Zhen Ji try to escape from Wei (a few words from friends and the like, as she battles through them of course), only to fall right into the hands of Cao Pi and sent off to her suicide, while Zhi is sent off to a far off province (or perhaps...)

That could actually be Zhi's second to last stage (in the impossible chance they put him in...) with that being his cutscene for the end of the stage, while that being Zhen Ji's stage has them riding off into the sunset, happily ever after. (Not exactly historical... but it would be very unrewarding to die at the end of your Musou.)

I really have no idea for Da/Xiao Qiao without the inclusion of Qiao Xuan in an important NPC role, I find it difficult to seperate the two from their husbands (since Koei has set their character's in stone...) Xiao Qiao in legend is Extremely interesting, with her killing Zhou Yu, to be free to have her new love ?Zhou Yun? Of course that would be a rather sadistic twist and I am unsure of how the fanbase would take that.
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby GuoBia » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:40 am

Lady Wu would be nice! Need an older woman. Lady Bian might be cool. Would have like Guo Nuwang, but there's already Zhen Ji, so dunno about that. If they don't put Cao Pi as married to Zhen Ji (adultery somehow isn't acceptable in this sort of game?!), then conflict between the two would be great. It would be cool if in future games, choices the player makes changes the ending, so that in separate endings he could end up with either one. Yes, Guo Nuwang would be nice. Of course I still want to see Lady Wu first and foremost. I'd love her to be a strong, upstanding woman willing to go to fight and fight hard to protect her family and her country. It would be interesting if she just wanted Wu to stay out of the conflicts but ends up fighting in them herself to protect Wu.

I agree with Crosswindcrab on what they did to SSX. The stronger, family-loyal pre-DW6 came off as a much more exciting, stronger, er... Better, better, better? It was great that she kept to her family! DW6 KEELHAULED her!!! (Don't mention the costume. Somewhere out there, a little fairy is running around naked looking for her clothes...) In future games, they really should put her back because NO DW6 DOES NOT CONTAIN SUN SHANG XIANG! THAT PIXIE THING IS AN IMPOSTER!!!!

I think that if they hadn't cut her, they could have elaborated a lot more on Xing Cai and her relationships with Liu Shan and Guan Ping. It would have been nice. They could have like shown her conflicts a lot more and to more appeal, I think.

ANYWAYS I THINK DW NEEDS A LOT LOT MORE WOMEN CHARACTER WHO AREN'T ALL FOR THE PURPOSE OF FANSERVICE. They need to make girls who aren't under the age of 17 (or at least LOOK IT), for one thing... I really don't like it when all the girl characters are like... You know. >.> I would have liked Yue Ying in the game if she was actually ugly, or at least not intended to be pretty. If they can have ugly (Huang Gai) fat (Xiahou Yuan) old (dudes why not ugly fat old women? Is that illegal or something? It's good and all to have female characters with strong plots *ie. Diao Chan*, but still..... If it's not necessary for the guys to be young and supermodel, it should be the same for girls.

((Anyways.. *Embarrassed cough* it's too hard having so many yaoi pairings just for the lack of girls... Due solely to the fact there's NO ONE ELSE to pair the guys up with. Currently ALL but one pairing I like is male-male.))
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Re: New women characters, How many you want, who you want?

Unread postby Sean » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:24 pm

I honestly don't care about the content of a female character, but can I ask for one with a decent weapon and moveset?

Qiao sisters: humongous fans. I've never been a fan of either moveset (Xiao Qiao's Musou makes me want to rip my hair out!)
SSX: Chakram Bow. My bad. When you're trying to play a game that makes you tear through crowds, a slow moveset involving shooting arrows--spread shot or not--is going to take a while. The spread shot makes it go a little faster, yes, since we all know from Contra NES that spread shot is the most godly thing ever, but it would be easier if Koei kept her chakrams or gave her a decent weapon.
Xing Cai: Really, really long fork. I've never even heard of such a thing. She's supposedly Zhang Fei's daughter for Pete's sake, can't she use something similar? It's not like Koei's made similar movesets and weapon styles in the past.
Yue Ying: The scythe-thing was neat, I liked it. But now she has a longbow/crossbow, depending on which version you're playing. What is Koei's obsession with giving bow and arrows to characters?

I still think Koei should bring back CAWs.
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